[0:11:05] Emily: Hi there friend, welcome to this episode of the R. F. W. P. This is kind of a bonus episode. We were just chatting and I was talking to Lois about what we’re currently walking through and she was like you need to be recording. So I could give a bunch of caveats to what we say. She said. I could just say that Lois made me do it. But in this conversation in this episode I really could give a lot of caveats to things that I said or reference. But I’m not going to because I’m just going to let it be what it is. It’s just a conversation. It’s how I was really feeling, I’m really feeling and

[0:11:52] Lois: you can take it for what it is.

[0:11:54] Emily: So some of you will not be shocked at all because you’re walking through this or you have walked through this and anybody who might be shocked by any of the sentiments that I reflect here. I just ask you to approach them with Grace and some curiosity. I do want to give one caveat. I do mention this at the end of the episode, but I want to mention it on the outset, I made a couple of comments about the church that we have been attending for a few weeks and for anyone in my area who might know what church we’ve been attending. None of the comments that I made reflect experiences that we have had at this church. And like I say, at the end, it is just that I am learning to trust again and learning to have discernment again, and that is part of the struggle, is being able to see what is healthy and what is not. So in no way am I talking bad against the particular church that we have attended a few times with that being said, Here is our conversation.

[0:13:08] Lois: So, you were saying, coming, you know, coming out of I. F. B. And then jumping into the next thing,

[0:13:18] Emily: right? So to give some context, like this is what we’re like physically walking through right now is we left FB. We gave ourselves the break that we needed before we walked into another church. That was for us eight years. I know people who it was three years, not eight years, eight months, I know people who is three years, I know people like take three weeks off in their back, but when we walk out of I. F. B. It’s easy to find the next, like, we’re learning, we’re open, we’re going, what I was taught was wrong. And then the first thing that we learn, we kind of latch onto it and what needs to happen for healing is that we continue to question.

[0:14:11] Lois: But what about you personally? Like, there are things that are that you’re processing and that you’re realizing and that now you’re speaking out loud saying, I went through, you know, where I was in a church where I was spiritually abused and I do have religious trauma and that that’s where that was just like, man, record, record record and you were hot about it, which was good

[0:14:45] Emily: when I realized that like I was raised in a cult and I know some people that makes them really uncomfortable and they can’t, I struggled to say that because I know it hurt some people’s feelings that are close to me, but coming out of that you think anything but that is truth. Like anybody who’s preaching the gospel is right when then seeing the damage that is done in the Greater Evangelical Church at large and going this whole thing needs to be redone. Mhm.

[0:15:24] Lois: So, you you know that you experienced spiritual abuse in the church you were raised in.

[0:15:36] Emily: That was the first one that I realized. Mhm. It came through reading a series of blog posts that I stumbled upon. I was looking for some sheet music and on this guy’s blog, he has a story of a girl. He got out of a toxic narcissistic relationship and I binged 20 blog posts in a day and a half and was like sending it to all my friends. Like you got to read this because it was so telling of this stuff we’ve been through, even though it was a husband who was narcissistic, I was able to see that I was spiritually abused.

[0:16:16] Lois: Mm

[0:16:18] Emily: And acknowledging that was so helpful.

[0:16:23] Lois: Was that your ah ha moment?

[0:16:25] Emily: No.

[0:16:27] Lois: Or is that just a part of the

[0:16:29] Emily: that was just part of it? I think there were so many, when I say there were so many resources that God brought across our path. Another one was a video by Mark Dejesus on spiritual abuse. Another one was, oh, I can’t remember his name. His dad is a very famous I. F preacher down in texas, um what’s the name of that church? He just like a year ago, he changed the name of it,

[0:16:55] Lois: I don’t know,

[0:16:57] Emily: and he preached A message. It was like 35 minutes on spiritual PTSD. That’s just another uh message that open my eyes to that. And then that’s one of

[0:17:08] Lois: the, that’s one of the terminologies that um our therapist are christian therapist use, she’s like with everything that you guys have walked through, starting with the church trauma because that’s what it is. Um she’s like, you guys are dealing with a form of PTSD, she said, you don’t have to go um there are different versions of PTSD and she said, you can totally get that from what you’ve walked through. You don’t have to have gone and served and a war to get PTSD, even though that is obviously a huge think a lot of people are dealing with.

[0:17:52] Emily: But I think I heard eric Straczynski actually recently, like, it was an interview of him, I think anyway, it was him and he’s was talking about trauma and I don’t remember if he was talking to a counselor or friend, but they said, well, did it affect you? And he’s like, well, yeah, did she said, well, that was trauma.

[0:18:13] Lois: Yeah.

[0:18:13] Emily: Oh, like, we don’t have to classify our traumas. Like, well, somebody has a bigger trauma than me or no, if it impacts you, is trauma. So that was the next thing that I realized. Um, just last fall I allowed myself to um feel and acknowledge that it was not normal as a seven year old to have night mares over hill and not be able to sleep because of awful pictures that had been showing me stuff that my parents would not have let us see. Yeah. And like acknowledging that I had that trauma and then the next one, well, maybe not in order, but also like you said, acknowledging that I grew up in a cult like environment where we weren’t allowed to question, right? And so I think the point of what I was telling you is as we’re walking this out, trying to find and not really, we’re not on a mission to find a church,

[0:19:30] Lois: right? You’re just on a mission to heal. I think if you can even call it a mission, you’re just, you guys are just trying to walk through healing.

[0:19:41] Emily: So getting to the place where we were comfortable to walk into a church again. Like Bill was um ready before I was, but he was just patient and like the minute I said, hey, next week I think we could go over to this church, he was like, great, let’s do it. And we’ve been going for a few weeks and there are some like safety concerns, like doctrinal issues. I know I’m not having any struggles with, but for us there’s like safety concerns and we need to, we need to take a step back. I mean you just said it and I, I’m glad you did because I, we need to take a step back because it feels like we’re going too fast. I want people to know that they need to take time for their healing. We can’t be dogmatic about what we believe. And I feel like there’s different layers to this. And I had a lady say this to me a while ago and I was kind of mad. She’s like, I remember being right where you’re at. I was like, I like where I met, but she said it really kindly, but just just like I remember being there. I remember that look in your eye is the same because we we jump from this is bad too. This is good in our ichthyology and we latch onto it so hard that we stop questioning for a while. Yeah. And it’s okay to keep questioning

[0:21:15] Lois: sure,

[0:21:16] Emily: it’s healthy. Yeah.

[0:21:19] Lois: Well, here’s the thing. I think part of the reason that’s some when they leave a cult like denomination, and I hate to say that across the board because we’ve probably said this a bunch that there are some independent baptist churches that are actually independent. There are probably several different circles I think it was. I can’t remember which interview it was, but somebody was talking about, there’s like Probably six circles within the IFB you know. Um and so don’t think I’m talking about every single circle, but and when when you are raised like that, whether it’s I. F. B. Or it’s any other denomination that was cultish in it, where you earned favor with God by how many times a week you were at church and all of that. Um That is hard to unpack. That is hard to I don’t know what the what the word is that I’m looking for. It’s not deconstruct, but it’s hard to um walk through. I don’t have to be at the church every single time. The doors were open. My heart should desire to be there. But you know, when you were in an IFB church, sunday morning, sunday night, Wednesday night, soul winning revival, you have to be there and if you’re not there, you feel guilty or what’s wrong with so and so they must not be as spiritual as so and so and and it’s all around if you show up, I think that’s why a lot of people when they leave the F. B. Um they leave for healthy reasons, but they don’t give themselves enough time to get to get healthy and he’ll and they do jump into the next church when there, they were really, really honest, they’re not ready. I don’t know, I probably took too long to say that, but I’m just trying to figure it out why why people do that. And I think it’s because they uh they’re still dealing with the I have to be in church right now. Yes, don’t get me wrong, I think we should be in church together and should be in community together, but when you’re healing, you know,

[0:24:14] Emily: that’s what’s key though. We are the church and we need to be in community with others. Uh That does not mean, I mean, could please Covid teach us anything. Mhm. But it doesn’t it’s not Go gather with 100 other people in worship, It’s not it, and we have a a western view of what church is, an Americanized view of what gathering is. And so I think you hit something, a big reason why another thing that I see, and I’m just going to be while we’re kind of just have our might gone to be real. I see lot of people latching onto a new denomination and they haven’t give them given themselves, like you said, the space to heal and I’m not saying that we’re doing this perfectly, it’s awfully messy. And like you mentioned in your story, you left your church and you were without that community through a time that, well, you didn’t leave your church, you were pushed out, you had to leave, but you were without that community and there’s that longing for the community, but we also need to honor our bodies are healing process long enough to take a step back. Yeah,

[0:25:54] Lois: Yeah, I agree. And I was ready to be sitting in somewhere for worship, but there were a lot of Sundays during that time that I didn’t go. Now bobby started um being an interim, just preaching. Not like the people that asked him to come preach, they didn’t like want him or they felt they felt like they had staff to hospital visits and all of that. So he just prepared to preach every week and would he would go preach and did that for a really long time and I visited with him. I went with him some and then finally he and I just, I had to sit down and I had to tell him um when I walk in these doors and when I sit in this sanctuary, I don’t want to be here. Um, I don’t want to be here because it and it had nothing to do, you know, with the people or anything. It was just like I it was very triggering and I know that’s word we use a lot, but it was very triggering to be in that service. And I wanted, of course I wanted to hear my husband preach. I love to hear my husband preach. But everything else that was there reminded me of the politics and the committees and the the power players in where we had previously served. And I’m like, I can’t do this, I can’t do this. And he was so understanding and so I would rest or I would go to where we attend now and just sit just sim And don’t you think part of it is because like people people jump into another denomination or people jump into serving right away because they were raised in an environment where they felt like they got there, their identity and their um they got their identity and how they felt good about themselves and all of that through doing things. Mhm.

[0:28:43] Emily: And the tension, one of the tensions that I’m feeling right now is how the new the pastor at the place we’ve been going. As far as I can tell, it’s hard for me to tell because I have so much um, distrust of pastors. So I I cannot say if this is a reflection on him or not, but they seem so ready like to welcome us in and put us on the worship team and put Bill in charge of some youth activity thing

[0:29:24] Lois: because

[0:29:26] Emily: they’re just, they’re just excited. Like, wow, you guys know what you’re doing and I can’t, I can’t was I can’t press into that and part of

[0:29:40] Lois: this and you shouldn’t. So I’m I’m 100% with you on this.

[0:29:49] Emily: So one of the things that I have recognized and felt just this week is the need to be okay with receiving for a while. Yeah. We we get our identity from our service. Yes, but like,

[0:30:13] Lois: but we shouldn’t.

[0:30:15] Emily: But like you said in your story, right? We shouldn’t. We cannot, we cannot match are we? Our identity is not in what we do, it’s whose we are. Yeah. And we can’t get those mixed up. It’ll lead to a lot of defeat and high highs and really low lows that are just are our pride and our, um, yeah, but I need to be okay with sitting. If we go more, I need to be able to say not yet. I need to sit and receive. And that’s really hard because we want to give of ourselves. Um, but being in a place where we’re receiving is really hard for us and that’s an area that we need to heal. I think all of us need to heal in our ability to receive theirs. We don’t want to be, you know, consumers of church. We want to be participants, but sometimes we need to be okay with people ministering to us and if they don’t minister to us in the way that we need, I also have to be okay with that, but that doesn’t mean that I jump in. Yeah.

[0:31:33] Lois: You know, I can say, and you’re absolutely right. I can say one of the things that drew me to continue to attend the church that we currently attend, um, continue to draw me is because even though the leadership at that campus didn’t necessarily know all that we had walked through, they knew enough two minister to us In a way with zero expectations, zero expectations from us. Um, and, and that was huge. And it took us a while to sit in that. It took us a good while to sit in that because then you feel like I’m not, I’m not doing anything. I’m not, um, not just participating, but I’m not contributing. And the truth, the matter is one of the things that I do I do really love about where we currently attend is that they are all about healthy leadership and, and so they did not push us too start serving. They just loved on us

[0:33:05] Emily: and there might need to be a really candid conversation man. But just being honest, I don’t know where the line is between being spiritually abusive towards them. I think I said this before we hit record because I want to give them space to learn, especially about, um, like such sexual abuse and protecting the Children in the church. But part of me doesn’t want to say anything. Part of me wants to, not about the sexual abuse, but I don’t want to say, hey, I’m not able to serve right now. I want to, I just want to observe how they treat us if we don’t or I want to be or I want to be the problem child who just like, like black, all of our ish out all of my questions and that’s where the spiritual abuse would come on my part towards them. Like I just want to test you and that’s not fair or right. But I’m just being honest, like I feel both either being silent and like, have you ever had a friend who was like that, like, or maybe your sister or just gave you the help me, if you can attitude or the like I’m going to give it all to you and I basically say, I know there’s no solution but try and do something anyway. I don’t know. Yeah.

[0:34:43] Lois: And I don’t think either one of those are the path, but I totally get where you’re coming with that. Mhm But I think, and this is just my own personal experience. I think that um the longer you allow yourself to sit and glean and sit and um hell obviously this is not profound, but the healthier you will be when you do feel lead to begin to contribute. But to me personally, having been a staff member before I totally get the oh my gosh, fresh couple young blood, they’ve been a ministry, they know how to do stuff. Maybe they can A B or C.

[0:35:52] Emily: Yeah, and that’s going to be a conversation that Bill and I have together first where we go this is our line and this is where we were not right when they approach and say would you like to we say? Um No, no actually. Yeah.

[0:36:10] Lois: Yeah, but but see what would be super healthy? Uh huh would be for them to recognize really recognize where you guys are, what you’ve been through, what you are currently going through, what you’re currently walking through the deaths of struggles, whatever. Um, and and not ask you to serve. That’s to me that is the height of healthy leadership. We’re not going to ask them because they’re not ready and that’s okay

[0:36:56] Emily: because serving in a church is like the measure of your spirituality, whether people like to admit it or not, pastors accidentally measure their flocks and I say flock, um the people in their cares spirituality by how much they’re doing and how involved they

[0:37:19] Lois: are

[0:37:21] Emily: rather than um

[0:37:23] Lois: not just the pastors, but like anybody who’s in volunteer work. Right? Mhm. I think that you guys are in a particularly different situation because there are not a lot of options, but maybe for such a time as this, it’s okay not to feel like you have to find an option to continue to go. I do think that believers need to come together and be in community and for me personally, I do believe in the local church, I do believe in the local body of believers, but I also know when people have been hurt in the quote unquote corporate church, that too, fling them right back in to a different situation is not the answer for their spiritual health. Mhm.

[0:38:45] Emily: So if we were to wrap up this little impromptu hit record, Sesh Yeah,

[0:38:55] Lois: the real talk with the girls,

[0:38:59] Emily: what made you say hit record was when was talking about giving yourself space to heal and not jumping from one thing to the

[0:39:09] Lois: next, right,

[0:39:11] Emily: and not feeling like you have to please be gracious to the people around you. Mhm And remember that, even if you feel like you’re two months out and you’ve healed or your six years out and you’ve healed that people need to land on the same thing that you have. Mm A friend of mine said Rebecca drums to she’s ah a coach and a counselor for people who are deconstructing seriously. Go check her out. She’s so empathetic. She actually has an I. F. B. Background too. But she said, people who have deconstructed hold what they believe a little less tightly. That’s not exactly how she said it. But we hold it a little bit more openly and that’s not to say we don’t believe in absolute truth. Just means that we’re lot more empathetic or we learn more empathy towards what other people believe and we’re more curious than dogmatic. I think that’s the whole point, what I was trying to say.

[0:40:25] Lois: Sure. And the empathy comes back to loving people well and again, like you said, it doesn’t mean that we don’t believe in absolute truth. I believe in absolute truth. I do not believe in moral relativism where it’s true for me, but it’s not true for you, you know, and all of the, all the things, um, but people have to have time to heal. I was just scrolling through twitter uh, yesterday, no today today. And I saw so many. Um I saw like two or 3 different threads about somebody saying I went back to church yesterday for the first time and um something happened and it just was very difficult for me to be there and I wanted to run, but I stayed and somebody else said something about something being triggering and, and someone else said, I cried through the whole service, but it was, but it was okay, you know? Um, and then people just want to say, well, you’re just being too sensitive and yeah, you’re a snowflake and you know, pull up your bootstraps and deal with it.

[0:41:58] Emily: And honestly, I mentioned when I was, when I allowed myself to admit that I had spiritual trauma or religious trauma. Yeah, I remember Approed this to two friends, I think I am struggling with not calling myself a snowflake and this is different for everybody, but for me, what’s most healing for me is allowing myself to feel that and acknowledge those things.

[0:42:34] Lois: I don’t know that I’m following you on the that you’re struggling with not calling yourself a snowflake.

[0:42:41] Emily: Okay, so go back to, when I finally admitted that I had religious trauma, it was a struggle to admit that. Okay, so it felt like

[0:42:56] Lois: why? Because you work because you were comparing your religious trauma to somebody else’s religious

[0:43:01] Emily: trauma and I felt bad for the implications it had on, like, people around me. Mhm. So if I admit that, is it very painful for other people. So, I had to get to the place where I was okay with saying it and I didn’t throw myself under the bus and I didn’t say, oh, you’re just being petty or you’re just being emotional or you know, all that crap we were taught about being a woman were just being too emotional. You’re not too much, you are not too much, you’re not too emotional, you’re not too broken, you’re not taking too long to you and you do not. I mean, obviously,

[0:43:55] Lois: we need to be right. You know, obviously we went the holy spirit to do his work in our lives and he makes us aware of, of things that we need to walk through and work on, but he also comforts us in the midst of the things that we are walking through and that we need to work on. one of the things that I heard just yesterday from a message was that the Holy Spirit work in our lives. Let me see if I wrote this down because if I did okay, the Holy Spirit transforms you, he convicts and convinces us to align with God. But this next line was awesome. The conviction of the Holy Spirit doesn’t bring shame when we listen to him. It brings peace. Mhm Others would like to bring shame on us. But um yeah, so good. And then another thing that was um talking about the Holy Spirit and his personhood and and who he is and the work he does in our lives. If we miss that, the Holy Spirit is a person will miss that. He is personal.

[0:45:36] Emily: Mm I love that. Yeah.

[0:45:39] Lois: But yeah, he points and the Holy Spirit always points us back to jesus. So it is okay to walk through oh the tough times. Um I think I think the um phrase deconstructing your faith has gotten a bad rap because the first few people that came out and about deconstructing their faith um said that they no longer believed in God that they were wrong and all that. So um if people here about somebody deconstructing their faith, they’re assuming that the person is now an atheist and that is not true for everybody. And I even hate to say deconstructing faith because I don’t know that we’re really when you walk through and you question and you’re trying to figure these things out. I don’t think we’re deconstructing our faith. I think we’re deconstructing um religious gossipy or or just the big c church and what’s really biblical and what’s not biblical, what’s healthy and what’s not healthy what what what is God say about this? And I think a lot of people are deconstructing all the man made added things. Not you know I don’t know.

[0:47:27] Emily: I would I would just add though I think you’re right but I would add that sometimes you have to take apart all of it, deconstructing. You have to like undo all of it and lay it all out. Yeah. To see what fits back in and what doesn’t

[0:47:46] Lois: doesn’t make sure

[0:47:47] Emily: you take apart the good, the bad, the ugly. And I feel like it’s a lifelong process of questioning and being curious and saying wait I put this piece back in but I think it goes over here and like and then so giving people the space you’re right, all of them,

[0:48:09] Lois: Yeah you’re right. And I think it goes back to our world view. I think part of it goes back to what we were taught um growing up, it was a and nothing wrong with the bible tells me so, but it was a the bible tells me so, and you know, this is how it is A B and C. And you just need to listen to me. Mhm. Where it would be a healthier thing to say. This is what scripture says. So, let’s talk about this. How do we walk this out? Do you have questions about that? What are your questions? You know what? I had questions like that when I was a kid. And there’s not this conversation of walking through scripture, there’s just this constant, like, push, push voice and everybody’s supposed to just listen and never question take it in. I’m probably not explain that well, but as a former teacher, Socratic method, my favorite way to teach. It’s discussion oriented. That doesn’t mean we just go willy nilly and everybody goes, well. I feel this about the scripture and I feel this about this person. I I interpret it this way and I interpret it this way. It’s not what I’m talking about. It’s just talking about taking the truth. And let’s talk about why this is truth. Because then you own it for yourself. And I think if we had scripture being taught that way and biblical faith being taught that way where people were having discussions and allowed those things, we would have less people having to walk through deconstructing their faith.

[0:50:13] Emily: Because only certain questions are well, questions are only approved so long as you land on the right answer.

[0:50:20] Lois: Mm That’s the catch. Okay.

[0:50:27] Emily: Mhm. So we get really uncomfortable when people ask questions that might challenge our worldview. and this is the struggle. We get real uncomfortable because we have just believed the bible. So so so that’s why I believe it. I remember when I was baptized as um after I got saved. Like why do you believe your saved? Well the bible says so was the approved answer?

[0:50:56] Lois: Oh

[0:50:57] Emily: like um I don’t even remember what the like what am I actually saying? So I’m just going to say the bible says so because that was what everybody else says. Mm and we are faith sometimes isn’t very deep. So when somebody else comes around with questions, we shut them up quick because it makes us uncomfortable and holding to what we Holding two like I’ve said, holding to our past beliefs keeps us from moving forward and it feels safe because it’s scary out here. Just be real. Yeah. Yeah, deconstructing, feeling like you’re not sure where are you um can belong in a church. Family is scary. You

[0:51:52] Lois: know, a lot of people are doing house churches now. Even the new testament um and not just because of covid, I mean house churches, I think Frances chan I haven’t read the book but Francis chan you know, had a church in California, grew it to 5000 and then he you know, lovingly resigned and stepped away because he just got very convicted. That um he felt there is a more biblical way to do that. And so now it’s

[0:52:29] Emily: smaller. Alright, well, can I give a big caveat because I know that people that know me in my little town might listen to this episode and I want to just clarify that I am not at all saying the church we’ve been trying is spiritually abusive. What I’m saying is I still don’t trust myself to be able to tell. Yeah, because we’re still healing. And some things that feel like they’re red flags might not be and healing our relationship with the Holy Spirit and letting him teach us and direct us and guide us and say this is right and this is wrong and no, you’re right, this isn’t okay. And that person like you have a suspicion about like you can trust your gut by the Holy Spirit and learning how to you can trust your intuition that’s guided by the Holy Spirit. But that’s a huge healing process. Show,

[0:53:39] Lois: you know, years ago, early on in our marriage, bobby and I were really struggling and when I say really struggling and like close to being done struggling within the first five years of her marriage and we went to a therapist in our town, Which was, you know, we’re talking 30, 32, this June we will have been married, we will be married 32 years. So, you know, in the first five years of marriage and that the church is that you’re going to and stuff like you still kinda you still kind of Haydn and sneak and going to a therapist because you ought to just be spiritual enough to handle it. Yeah, that kind of thing. But something that you said made me think of some of our early marriage counseling and there had been some just some trust broken between the two of us and and dr Nielsen was his name and he said, you cannot will yourself to trust again.

[0:54:52] Emily: Mm. Yeah, you

[0:54:54] Lois: have to take time and you have to allow the process, but you can’t will yourself to trust again. Now, that doesn’t mean that you don’t take strides towards healing, but so I guess I’m telling you, Mhm Emily, you cannot will yourself to trust again. Um, you can’t push those feelings of mistrust down and I think you’re being really wise about um stating that the mistrust is because of the spiritual abuse, the religious trauma that you went through and not necessarily because you see something in this situation or in this pastor that, um, that he’s given you a reason to mistrust him has nothing to do with him. It has to do with the manipulation, abuse, fake. Yeah. Words that I can’t say right now situation that you grew up in, just the lying, just the whole thing of Being one way during the week and then somebody getting up and preaching on sunday, you know? Um yeah, all the things,

[0:56:31] Emily: well,

[0:56:33] Lois: wow, we’ve just had just kind of,

[0:56:35] Emily: I think 45 minutes in is a good bonus episode.

[0:56:39] Lois: I think so, But yeah, when you just, when you just started and I could just that genuine transparency um and you were just, you were kind of getting lit up about it, and that’s when I was like, we need to hear how you feeling about this and others need to hear how you’re feeling about this and and where you are, because I know there are a lot of people walking the same path and they need to know that they aren’t alone, yep, and here you are still after all the junk, I think what our story, you know, is different, but but still you and Bill are walking this out faithfully. You’re walking it out faithfully, you’re asking questions, you’re in the word, you are extending grace to others. You are, you know, my goodness, you’ve started a a coaching business where you were trying to help people, um, he’ll their relationship with God and their view of who he is in their lives. You guys are walking faithfully. The fact that you’re even walking towards him still after everything you guys been through is amazing to me.

[0:58:35] Emily: Well, like you didn’t want to wrap up your story in a bow. I don’t want people to, I mean, I appreciate that and I’m going to receive that. Yeah, But it’s not always pretty. There are days. I can’t, I don’t read my bible. Like last week I’ve talked about this on my podcast. I struggle with systems because every system that I get into goes dry really fast.

[0:59:03] Lois: Well in systems, we’re what we’re used

[0:59:07] Emily: very true

[0:59:09] Lois: abusively. And so you’re already a free spirit and then you take the spiritual abuse of those systems that were perpetrated on you guys in the church. And I’d be like, I don’t want any fences either. Like you get him off of me because I don’t want anything to look like it used to

[0:59:31] Emily: and I am learning that I need structure, but then I have to run away really fast,

[0:59:38] Lois: but

[0:59:39] Emily: it’s messy. It’s still, um, I still wouldn’t have it any other way. I don’t want to be sure about something that I could still wrestle with and question and wonder about and go deeper on and standing off who God is, because I don’t just have blind faith,

[1:00:03] Lois: thank you for being so transparent. Um, there was a book years ago and I don’t remember the author but that I read it and the more that I read it, I was like, man, I think that’s what really started to turn me because I grew up wanting to fit in this group and and I was constantly insecure about what people thought about me and wanted to fit into the girls group and all that jazz. Um and I was a mess. I’ll just tell you, but I came across this book in college, I don’t remember who gave it to me or whatever, but or if I had to read it for a class, but it’s literally called the trauma of transparency.

[1:00:51] Emily: Oh, interesting.

[1:00:53] Lois: And that was written 30 years ago and think about the title of that book and how relevant it is today, because people say they want transparency. They want yeah, genuineness and all of that. But really in the church, they just want everything swept under the rug or wrapped up in a bow because life is messy and your walk with christ can be messy. And there is a message in the messiness. Um I need to look up who wrote the trauma of transparency and if, if it’s even still in print, Gosh, that

[1:01:45] Emily: well, Hey, you want to know there’s a book I read as a teenager that’s out of print. Okay.

[1:01:52] Lois: Yeah. What is it? I

[1:01:56] Emily: kiss state. I’m not,

[1:01:57] Lois: I’m not impressed. Yeah. Grant Howard the trauma of transparency, A biblical approach to interpersonal, real communication. I wonder if it would still, if some of the things would still stand today after, you know, everything that people have walked through in the church.

[1:02:25] Emily: Yeah, interesting.

[1:02:28] Lois: Well I’m so glad we hit record again because even though it’s late and you have been working on your own podcast all day today, I think there was more to be heard because somebody is going to, somebody’s gonna um, definitely relate to where you are right now.

[1:02:55] Emily: I’m going to end with a

[1:02:56] Lois: funny, okay.

[1:02:58] Emily: I think, I think sunday there’s going to be somebody who’s not in church because of me because of what we just said,

[1:03:06] Lois: oh they’re not going to be in church sunday because we just talked about

[1:03:10] Emily: maybe that’s not funny. It’s good.

[1:03:12] Lois: I know somebody else that’s probably going to take a step back and not be in church sunday in the building, but they will be in church in community and I think she has red

[1:03:26] Emily: hair

[1:03:27] Lois: and she and her husband and her daughters will have house church sunday and rest. Well as they experience sabbath together.

[1:03:40] Emily: Sabbath is good plug for sabbath. Where do we land this?

[1:03:45] Lois: I don’t know if we’re landed them playing on this one. Okay, yep. You know, I know we always try to land the plane um and that’s good, but I’m not sure land the plane on this one. I’m not sure we need to close the conversation because I think that there are men and women, young men, young women, teenagers, senior adults that needed to hear just this transparent raw footage today and just need to probably email us there their own experience and where they are right now. So if you are walking through something, if you would allow us the privilege of praying for you while you’re dealing with what it is that you’re dealing with. Um, because I think it was Tony Evans that said or either in a fire, getting ready to walk out of the fire or getting ready to walk into a fire, email us hello at sister seeker dot com and just share and know that it’s confidential.

[1:05:15] Emily: Absolutely.

[1:05:17] Lois: But it will give us he’ll give us a privilege to, to pray for you or maybe you want to just send us an email two um encourages about maybe things that need to be heard in the future and just allow us to prey on that and see where it leads. So yeah, I’m thinking this one doesn’t this one doesn’t get tied up at the end. I think this will be an ongoing conversation that will lead to many more wonderful conversations. You know, our opening episode where we talked about what the R the F the W. In the P. Stand for relational wonder faith purpose. I just want to thank you for representing the relational part of of our purpose tonight and just sharing with us what you’re walking through.

[1:06:25] Emily: Well, thanks for making space for it.

[1:06:27] Lois: Absolutely.