[0:00:25] Lois: Hey guys. So I just wanted to tell you Emily and I have a lot of fun when we’re recording and sometimes we take some of that fun out. Sometimes it gets put in bloopers at the end, but we’ve decided this week we’re not gonna bleep any of the bloopers. So we’re coming at you with everything we got tonight,

[0:00:52] Emily: brace yourselves.

[0:00:57] Lois: Hey friends and welcome to the R. F. W. P. Podcast. I’m your host, Lois Mcnair and with me is my cohost

[0:01:06] Emily: Emily Lewis.

[0:01:07] Lois: Hey Emily.

[0:01:09] Emily: Hi lois!

[0:01:11] Lois: This week we are excited to, I have no idea what we’re excited too because that’s not where I was Okay. Three

[0:01:24] Emily: 321. Hi Lois, do you have a quote this week?

[0:01:30] Lois: Well girl, you just jumped right into it, might as well all you did was say hi, it just jumped. Here we go. I have do I have a quote this week? Well before we get to the quote, I think we need to talk about Micro Joyce. All right, So do you have a Micro Joy this week?

[0:01:53] Emily: I do this morning. I got to paint at our new house and I got to paint with my mom. And it was so fun. She we were just trimming out and talking about stuff and she laughs at my bad dad jokes. And

[0:02:08] Lois: would you now have many?

[0:02:12] Emily: I do.

[0:02:14] Lois: Do you have a dad joke for us this week?

[0:02:19] Emily: I have a prayer request. Yes.

[0:02:24] Lois: I can’t keep a straight face. You have a prayer request. I asked you if you had a dad joke and you said you have a prayer request. You’re confusing our listeners because they think you’re gonna get all serious and then you just bust out laughing. So okay, you you have a prayer request. What is it I do

[0:02:48] Emily: if you could pray for a man who swallowed six plastic horses?

[0:02:53] Lois: Six plastic horses.

[0:02:56] Emily: Mhm. But the doctors say that now, he’s in stable condition. Okay.

[0:03:03] Lois: Oh my gosh!

[0:03:05] Emily: Oh my

[0:03:07] Lois: God, I don’t know if it gets any more corny than that. You are definitely giving brian Edwards from the RFP podcast a run for his money.

[0:03:19] Emily: Um I got that from my brother in law Andrew, and even being honest, he texted it to me and I was like, oh I’m praying any replied. Uh did you not get

[0:03:32] Lois: it? Speaking of the RFP, um We’re really thankful to be a part of the R. F. P. Family network. That’s not right 321 And speaking of the RFP, we’re really thankful to be a part of the R. F. P. Network family of podcasts. Is that how you say that?

[0:04:10] Emily: I don’t know, it will work. Uh The RFP network.

[0:04:16] Lois: Oh yes, the RFP network. There you go. You can edit that you want to. So I don’t sound completely ignorant

[0:04:25] Emily: uh with me, if you go to the R. F, I’ll say that again. If you go to R F P network dot org, you can, all of the podcasts in the family of podcasts are linked there.

[0:04:42] Lois: You know, a lot of people don’t know that there is an entire family of podcasts that and are supportive of and everybody is doing such a cool, cool job and you’ve got so many different choices. And,

[0:05:00] Emily: And yesterday we had an episode with the four freedom podcast drop with John and James.

[0:05:07] Lois: We did and it was super cool. Such a good win. But you know what happened on that? We’re talking about the, and I don’t know if it made the cut, I can’t remember, but we were talking about all the different podcasts and um while we’re guests on there on four freedoms podcast, jeans goes and yeah, 26 letters podcast is my favorite. Tried

[0:05:40] Emily: not to take it personally.

[0:05:42] Lois: No, I, I told him, yeah, I’m the one who actually brought him up, I think because they’re one of my favorites too.

[0:05:48] Emily: Mhm Yeah, so before we get into today’s topic, the sponsor for today’s episode is actually a class that I’m teaching next week.

[0:06:02] Lois: Nobody.

[0:06:04] Emily: Yeah, so fun, and it is about legalism and how you can break free from legalism because even even if you’re out, sometimes legalism is still in us, or sometimes it’s really hard to just even break out. So we’re gonna talk about how to stop working for acceptance and develop a more personal relationship with God so that you can walk in freedom and grow in Grace.

[0:06:36] Lois: That’s awesome. And so can people sign up for that class at Emily at abundant grace,

[0:06:45] Emily: they can go to your relationship with God dot com forward slash legalism class. So super easy.

[0:06:54] Lois: You go ahead and say that again and we need to make sure that we put that in our episode notes for this week.

[0:07:01] Emily: Absolutely.

[0:07:02] Lois: So that is

[0:07:03] Emily: your relationship with God dot com slash legalism class.

[0:07:11] Lois: Cool. That’s

[0:07:12] Emily: cool. Yeah, so get your seat saved and I’ll see you next week. I’m really excited. We can just spend some time talking about grace and how we can leave the bondage, as paul calls it, of legalism.

[0:07:29] Lois: That’s so good. That’s so good. Hey, by the way, I do have a micro joy.

[0:07:33] Emily: Oh I skipped right past it.

[0:07:37] Lois: Yeah, that’s okay, I’ll be fine. So I do have a micro joy. Um I traveled all day so I’m exhausted, but I came out to um I’m actually recording from L. A. Tonight and um that’s, that’s not lower Alabama where I usually live. That’s actually L. A. In California. But um my sister, one of my sisters picked me up from the airport today and she picked up her purse and set it over to the side as we got into her jeep. And lo and behold I looked at the outside of her purse and she had cute little scripture flips attached to the outside of her purse, her little bitty um versus that is subhash inside of her purse. It’s so fun. And you know I kind of found out about this, well I saw the scripture flips but she just told me recently that she’s been listening to the podcast and she heard about scripture flips and she went and ordered like three or four sets of things. That’s

[0:08:50] Emily: amazing. So fun. Yeah. Yeah.

[0:08:55] Lois: So that was a micro joy just to see with scripture flips in the wild, In the wild, In the wild of L. A. Where did the in the wild? I don’t know. It’s not in the studio

[0:09:10] Emily: I guess. So it’s out in the wild real life. I don’t know.

[0:09:17] Lois: Uh So

[0:09:18] Emily: as we get into today’s topic, I think the quote that you have for today kind of is a good segue into that

[0:09:28] Lois: girl. I’m not sure if it’s a good segue or if it just like drops a bomb like right at the beginning.

[0:09:34] Emily: I like bombs. But yeah, drop it.

[0:09:38] Lois: You can’t say that in public control. We’re gonna get this targeted, we’re gonna, we’re gonna end up being on the uh FBI. I almost said I. F. B. I. Oh, they are the same letters. I think. I think we’re already on the FBI most wanted list for those that know about us. Which is not very many. But no, you’re going to get us put on the FBI’s most wanted list. Can

[0:10:08] Emily: I rephrase it? I love truth bombs.

[0:10:13] Lois: That’s better. You still said bomb, but it’s okay you said it first. And by the way, I know, and by the way, can I, can I tell you that this quote is coming from um an older gentleman that is revered by many from years past even though he’s already in heaven. Um and he had a massively cool beard. So yes, you can have a beer to be a christian for those of you that think that facial hair is ungodly, it’s wrong. You’re just wrong. Okay, I’ll be serious now. Okay, But it actually is. This quote is from Charles Haddon Spurgeon Spurgeon can’t even say his name. This quotes from Spurgeon and he said, discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right. And I have heard that quote used over the years. What do you think about that quote? That question was for you Emily.

[0:11:32] Emily: I think I think it’s good to know that we can be guided by the Holy Spirit and know for sure where God wants us. I can see how it could be used as a weapon, like, you know, don’t move until you’re 100% sure or don’t, you know? But

[0:11:55] Lois: I think one of the reasons and I don’t know this for sure, because I’d like to look into it a little bit more, but it kind of takes the judgmentalism out of it. This quote, because he said the discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It’s the it’s knowing the difference between right and almost right. See as believers, we already know the difference between right and wrong. That’s not discernment, that’s just straight up biblical, you know? And so I think sometimes the word discernment gets thrown around like um only certain people can have the discernment, but like if you have the Holy spirit, you have discernment and yes, disarmament is also a spiritual gift, but we can talk about that later. Yeah,

[0:12:46] Emily: as we jump into this topic, I think the first thing I’d like to do is read a quote from Hannah Anderson’s all that’s good and she talks about discernment just in a really refreshing way. So I’m going to read a good chunk of this page as we look at the chaos of the world around us. It would be easy to count it up as a loss to see. It’s burnt edges and soggy bottom. She was referring to a pie that she had made that was didn’t turn out well and simply toss it in the trash. There was there was rough, there was a context. They’re

[0:13:24] Lois: like wait a minute. Where did this soggy bottom come from? Okay, She’s using a pie as an analogy. Right,

[0:13:34] Emily: okay. So it can be tempting to toss it in the trash but to do so would be to miss the goodness of the world. God has made. The goal of discernment is not to simply avoid the evil in this life. It is to learn what is good so that we might embrace and enjoy it. She says, listen to the words of Solomon again. Then you will understand righteousness, justice and integrity. Every good path for wisdom will enter your heart and knowledge will delight you discretion will watch over you and understanding will guard you. So follow the way of the good and keep to the path of the righteous,

[0:14:16] Lois: mm hmm. That’s would you go back to that section where she says something about good? I mean I know the book, it’s about it’s all good but that you were reading that, I would like to hear that part again.

[0:14:30] Emily: The goal of discernment is to not simply avoid the evil in this life. It is to learn what is good so that we might embrace and enjoy it.

[0:14:45] Lois: That’s good. Because um most of the time I when you think about somebody preaching or teaching about discernment, it’s it’s focused around knowing what not to do.

[0:15:03] Emily: Mhm. Right.

[0:15:04] Lois: Would you agree with that?

[0:15:06] Emily: Absolutely. And it kind of is like, well you know in the circles that we grew up in discernment wasn’t hardly even a thing, because if you just follow a list, I mean, you got it. God said to do these things and do them in this order every day and do this every sunday and this every Wednesday you eliminate in legalism, the need for Holy Spirit discernment in your life. So, Absolutely, I agree. Yeah.

[0:15:39] Lois: Yeah. Because you’re being told um what you should and shouldn’t do and Mhm. And you don’t have to think about anything else. And if you have a question about it, you you go to your pastor, right? And then he tells you what the Holy Spirit is saying because he hears from the Holy Spirit and then talks to you

[0:16:05] Emily: about it, right? Have another. Of course,

[0:16:08] Lois: I’m being sarcastic right to settle

[0:16:12] Emily: another quote that illustrates the list here I want to read. She says we also can’t rely on adopting certain positions or practice is to avoid worldliness, especially if we use them to avoid the more difficult task of examining our own heart motives. And she goes into some specific examples. But

[0:16:43] Lois: but that right there, her her saying that it’s just like basically what I get from that is that she’s talking about um just setting up things to avoid never making the wrong decision or stepping into something that you shouldn’t have. So more like um guard rails. It’s like when you go bowling and so that you don’t fall into the gutter in the bowling alley, you put the bumper pads up. But that doesn’t ever help you get to become a better bowler that just keeps you from the bowling ball slipping off into the gutter lane. Does that make sense? Yes, that’s why I came to my brain you don’t ever really learn how to become a better bowler. You just avoid the

[0:17:39] Emily: bad stuff, right? The rest of this says it, oh sorry, yeah, the rest of this say as long as we’ve picked and she has right in quotes, as long as we picked the right education for our Children, go to the right church, watch the right movies and vote for the right candidate. We won’t have to face the deeper truth about how easily our hearts are. Let us stray. We could be consumerist IQ, pragmatic and completely worldly, but never know it because we see our choices as right and this are convinced that we are right as well.

[0:18:19] Lois: Whoa, whoa. I mean that is a mouthful, but yeah,

[0:18:27] Emily: it’s that formula. You know, you just do these things and you’re right and obviously God is happy with you and then you don’t have to wonder or question your stance or if you’re wrong,

[0:18:46] Lois: you know that reminds me of um a message of someone that that reached out to me through our or through instagram, reached out through instagram and something that she said and her message to me in a little bit of her story just I couldn’t get it, I couldn’t get it off my mind and I think it goes along right now with what you just read about the right things. She was raised in the I. F. B. Um and Mhm. Here let me let me find this real quick because it just was um okay here we go. I think she had listened to the episode that I did almost a year ago now and did two episodes on the RFP with Nathan Jason and brian. Yeah. Um and she said on the second episode you were discussing what women should do to further their relationship with christ and I just sat in my chair crying, I felt so much guilt and shame that it took until the last few years for me to actively and passionately pursue my relationship with jesus, the lack of emphasis placed on personal relationship, scripture, reading and dissection, personal prayer time and discipleship has impacted me so much and mhm. Then she goes on to say, you know a little bit more and then this is the, this is the section that just really hit me, It is difficult to go from just worrying about being in church every time the doors are open, looking the part playing the part to focusing on the status of your heart and your relationship with God. That’s a big leap and that’s basically what you were just, you know, reading as long as we’re checking the list, as long as we’re doing what we need to be doing, um we don’t have to take the time to actually look at the status of our heart which is having discernment right about who we are. So when you’re just checking off lists every time you you take the Holy Spirit discernment out of the equation, I’m pretty sure that’s not what he meant no for us to be doing

[0:21:46] Emily: because the box like she put it in different words, but I’ll say it this way the box is safe. The predictability of the list feels safe and venturing out of that and going well, I don’t have to read that much bible or questioning things coming outside of that can be intimidating because the construct that were, that seem like they were keeping you safe are gone and now learning to trust the Holy Spirit to speak to you and guide you. It is a big task to do and at times the box just feels so much safer. But I will say healing your relationship with the Holy Spirit is so rewarding. It’s definitely worth that struggle. But the box sometimes is attractive.

[0:22:47] Lois: So here is um just to a generic definition of discernment, like um not even talking about the biblical context of discernment, just a generic the surma is the ability to obtain sharp perceptions or to judge. Well in the case of judgment, discernment can be psychological, moral or aesthetic in nature. This term it has also been defined in context as scientific, normative and formal. Um And in Webster’s dictionary, discernment is the quality of being able to grasp and comprehend what is obscure. Um but then you go to what is discernment um from a biblical or christian standpoint. And and again this is um a definition from Oxford languages, it says in the christian context, discernment um is the perception in the absence of judgment, with a view to obtain spiritual guidance and understanding, for example, without providing for a time of healing and discernment, there will be no hope of living through this present moment without a shattering of our common life. So um those are just some generic definitions of discernment, but there is a great um and I’ve heard, let’s see, I can’t remember, I’ve heard another podcast talk about the fact that they that they use got questions dot org for things um about the bible. So I’ve got a couple of things that I would just like to to read and then I I’d love for you to just kind of um talk about it basically. I mean that’s what we are doing, right, we’re talking on a podcast. Yeah, okay. The word discern and its derivatives are translations of the greek word um and a crane. Oh! In the new testament it means to distinguish to separate out by diligent search or to examine. Discernment is the ability to properly discriminate or make determinations. It is related to wisdom. The word of God itself is said to discern the thoughts and intentions of one’s heart. Hebrews. Chapter four verse 12 A discerning mind demonstrates wisdom and insight that go beyond what is seen and heard. For example, God’s word is spiritually discerned to the human mind without the spirit, the things of God. Our foolishness which it tells us in first Corinthians 2 14. The spirit then gives us spiritual discernment. So um Mhm means to distinguish two separate out by diligent search and to examine.

[0:26:37] Emily: I love what it said. It is wisdom that is beyond what is seen and heard because that we can we can trust what we see only to a certain point. We can only trust our circumstances to a certain point. And we can only trust our own judgment to a certain point. And that wisdom of discernment is that what takes us into faith, trusting God for what we can’t see and what we are natural tendency might not be that shifting from our own into intuition and instincts, which are not bad. We’re going to faith and following him deeper.

[0:27:27] Lois: Yeah. So, um let me read this first, for the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword piercing to the division of the soul and of spirit of joints and marrow and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. So where does discernment come from? Because a lot of people were raised assuming they had no discernment and they could only here what God was telling them to do uh behind the sacred desk, behind the wooden pulpit, that was that was the person that was hearing from God for them and never being taught to, wow, really learned a sermon for themselves by listening to the Holy Spirit. So what,

[0:28:27] Emily: yeah, what do you do with that? Well, the Holy Spirit or the discernment comes from the Holy Spirit and comes through God’s word, but there, but it’s like you said both together and when we are pressing into knowing who God is, his character, how he guides what his, you know, the parameters that he does have set up for us to be living an abundant life, we can and a safe life. Mhm. Then after that there is so much freedom that God gives us to be guided by the Holy Spirit and sometimes and I might step on toes, but you’re not always going to step on, you’re not always going to have a bible verse for what your mood next move should be. And we have to stop referring to the bible as like, I don’t know just one big, what’s the word I’m looking for? Um proof, roadmap proof text. Well and roadmap, it is first and foremost a narrative, a story and it is about God, not about us, it is about how he deals with his people, how he relates to us, not about what we should be doing next. So when we run, we should go to his word for wisdom and counsel and direction. But if we’re just reading through our bible until we see a verse that says go or a verse that says stay in your using God’s word as a good luck charm. We’ve we’ve removed the Holy Spirit from speaking into our lives and maybe guiding us in the direction. And I’m not saying you can’t speak through his word, I don’t know if that came out clear, but he you don’t need to go find a proof text for what you’re doing if it is within God’s parameter of good and right, what is the Holy Spirit telling you about what you should be doing right now?

[0:30:42] Lois: So let me ask you this because you have only been out of the I. F. B. For less than a year, like physically out. I mean you guys have been I think emotionally, mentally and spiritually out for a couple of years now in in a lot of ways because you were trying to salvage what was there or you know? Anyway. Yeah. So what would you say? Because I I’ve been out for 30 years. So there are some things that affect you that don’t affect me and then there are some things that affect me that I didn’t realize still affected me. But um what what would you say to our listeners? What would you say to the men and the women that are just coming out of uh a legalistic environment no matter what denomination it is And they have not been encouraged. Two listen to the Holy Spirit in their own lives. Somebody has always chewed the words for them and then told them what they needed. How can you encourage them to move forward? I think you know what I’m where I’m gonna

[0:32:06] Emily: love that question. You know when we talk about listening for God, I think the first place you start is just by asking say God, what do you want me to do and be silly about it, Be trivial. And God doesn’t always have to give you an answer about what you should eat for breakfast or which route you should go. But you might be surprised as you learn to listen. Maybe he does say go this way, not that way and talk to this person, Don’t talk to that person and just listen for his voice after you asked for and ask for it multiple times a day. God, what do you want me to do next? It’s a fun way to incorporate God into your everyday and listen for him. Another thing that God has been healing in my heart is my ability to make decisions and it comes down to that fear of failure and that feeling of always needing to make the right choice because sometimes it’s gray and you know, growing up we were taught, you know, if it’s doubtful, don’t do it. You know, if it’s gray, but sometimes your choice in front of you might not be black and white. So make the best decision possible and don’t be afraid to fail. Like you are going to miss the Holy Spirit’s voice, you’re going to think, I think he’s telling me to do this or you’re just gonna forget to ask him and go on your way. But it’s not the end of the world. We act like, you know the way we’ve been taught with so much fear that this is the end. If I mess this up, it’s the end. No, just go make a decision making to make a choice, Pick one, There’s no right or wrong. And depending on the situation, but maybe there’s no right or wrong and it’s not going to be catastrophic if you make the wrong choice and if you do get outside of God’s will and God’s leading, he will gently correct you and bring you back and guide you. He won’t stop speaking to you. I used to fear that he would like, oh, I better obey whatever he just told me to do. Like I feel like this is probably the last time he’s ever going to tell me to do and then we get too far gone doesn’t work that way so you can learn to make those decisions and ask him for direction. I think it’s simple. Did I oversimplify it?

[0:34:44] Lois: I don’t think so. I think um somebody is probably going to take a sound bite out of this

[0:34:51] Emily: that

[0:34:54] Lois: about talking to God. Being silly at the beginning of but no, I don’t I don’t think so. I I think that um a lot of people have subconsciously shut out hearing from the Holy Spirit. Maybe that’s not the maybe that’s not the way that it is. Maybe it’s because people are being raised in church situations or home life situations where they are never taught that they have the Holy Spirit living inside of them that they can listen to. And so when that’s been the pattern and that’s been the narrative that they have always heard, I can understand why somebody doesn’t feel like they hear from the Holy Spirit because they have never been taught biblically that that that’s that that’s the case that he does communicate with us. And I’m not talking about new revelation and some anointing that nobody else knows about. And no, I’m just talking about the fact that he walks with us and talks with us and lives in us on a daily basis. And to me, this is yet again, some a narrative that needs to be untwist ID because yeah, it’s been a twisted narrative in some environments for far too long.

[0:36:40] Emily: One of these other quotes out takes from this book, because she just doesn’t hold any hold anything back. She says, you develop discernment by becoming a person who knows how, not simply what to think.

[0:36:57] Lois: Say that again,

[0:36:58] Emily: you develop discernment by becoming a person who knows how, not simply what to think. You have to know how to think, like how to reason, how to ask questions and journey through, like to a conclusion, not this is what you’re supposed to think. This is the conclusion. Here you go.

[0:37:18] Lois: So when we think about discernment, it goes right along with wisdom. Our wisdom comes from discernment comes from the Holy Spirit comes from listening to the father’s voice. When you think about wisdom and scripture, the first thing that comes to the first person that comes to my mind, wisdom and scripture is Solomon. You know Solomon um Ask for wisdom and God granted it Um Proverbs chapter one Starting with verse one, the proverbs of Solomon, son of David, King of Israel to know wisdom and instruction to understand words of insight to receive instruction in wise, dealing in righteousness, justice and equity. To give prudence to the simple Yeah. To give knowledge and discretion to the youth. Let the wise here an increase in learning and the one who understands obtained guidance to understand a proverb and saying the words of the Wise and the riddles. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom and instruction. and it goes on of course in Proverbs Chapter one, but um wisdom is what Solomon asked for and that’s what he was given and for a long time used it very well to the Stern. Um so let’s talk about that Verse two. They’re a little bit to know wisdom and instruction to understand words of insight to receive instruction and wise, dealing in righteousness, justice and equity. And then verse five let the wise here and increase in learning and the one who understands obtained guidance.

[0:39:43] Emily: I love that it’s available. That’s just the first thing that crossed my mind. If we press in, if we ask for it, God makes it available to us, He’s not going to like download it to us. Like it seems like Solomon got it. But we can have wisdom, we can be wise, we can be discerning and seeing the good and seeing the bad and seeing the contrast and yeah, what what would you say?

[0:40:18] Lois: So I want to look at verse seven for a minute. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom and instruction. Now when you hear that verse Emily growing up, how was that verse used? How was that verse in the context of a message used basically.

[0:40:42] Emily: Yeah. The fear of the Lord was terrifying. Like, well, I guess I have to be afraid of him to fear him or to get wisdom. Well, I’m terrified because I can’t have a relationship with him. And then Just it’s like Psalm 1 19. I could never understand why David liked God’s Law. I don’t understand it. That seems like above me. I don’t think, you know, I felt less than I don’t think I’ll ever attain to. Like in God’s law, maybe I am a fool just because God’s law was so heavy that it was hard to want to love God’s truth even though my life was structured by it, it was really hard to love it.

[0:41:29] Lois: So when I look at verse seven and I and I I hear you because that was kind of the narrative that I heard growing up as well. But the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. It’s the it’s more of the awe and the healthy reverence not being afraid of him, not being afraid of him.

[0:41:53] Emily: Yes. Yes. And you

[0:41:56] Lois: know what, I’m sure somebody’s gonna check me on this. But this is this just came to my mind. Why would solemn, why would Salman Right in proverbs verse seven, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom instruction as and make it to where he is talking about literally being afraid of God. When 366 times in scripture, God says some form of do not be afraid now. We’re not talking about a lack of reverence or a lack of all right. We’re just um and I feel like that verse and the whole concept of wisdom and discernment has been, Yeah. Um well for lack of a better term that the narrative of that has been twisted um to be manipulative um for control purposes and if you do this, this will happen or if you don’t do this, then this will happen. And so when we’re making decisions as believers, when we’re following the Lord think about think about it this way. Um is this is this in the nature of God, does this line up with who he is and God’s character and what what he wants for me

[0:43:38] Emily: and what you said about being manipulative, I’ve seen leaders in my life who I feel like they thought that the ends justified the means in that it was okay to guilt trip you into serving because at least then you were serving and you get rewards and whatever. So the ends justified the means, I could manipulate you to get you to do what I believe is right. But what we’re talking about is Holy Spirit discernment leaves room for the personal relationship with God and the individuality that God created us in. Yeah,

[0:44:26] Lois: when you just said that, it reminded me of a statement that I heard not too long ago. If we miss that, the Holy Spirit is a person, we will miss that. The Holy Spirit is personal

[0:44:41] Emily: because it’s not just a force,

[0:44:45] Lois: right? The Holy Spirit transforms us, He convicts us. He convinces us to align with God. Um The conviction of the Holy Spirit doesn’t bring shame. It brings peace. And so the those things um the Holy Spirit does ah direct us. He always points us back to jesus, he always points us back to God the father. And so when we’re when we’re quote unquote, when we’re trying to discern which I get that, when we’re when we’re trying to discern um what the next step is or if this is a healthy situation or not a healthy situation, all that look back at God’s character, does this align with who he is and does this align with who he says that I am

[0:45:45] Emily: right because you are his chosen. And this actually reminds me if I can find it, this reminds me of another quote from that book, because she goes there too. And I love that we’re kind of on the same page as her because the only way we let go of our need to win which like our need to get it right is if we know that jesus has already won for us because my sense of worth is safe. I can open myself up to new ways of thinking about things, knowing that even experts are accountable to God, like they’re accountable to him, I don’t just have to follow them, I can follow God for me because I know who I am in him,

[0:46:40] Lois: wow, that’s good, I like that. Good. So what would be your advice to somebody who um is possibly still Sydney sitting under um a preacher or and is sitting in an environment where they have not been given the opportunity to just really um be taught what it is to listen to the holy Spirit, what would your advice be to them? Um Yeah, as we begin to wrap up about discernment,

[0:47:36] Emily: I feel like that’s really a hard question because uh huh I remember that, I remember sitting under messages that you just shake your head and you you feel that weight of condemnation like creeping back up on your shoulders even though you don’t know it’s for or you know it’s not for you. I I would say get out, but you know if you’re if you’re still there,

[0:48:02] Lois: I hear that. Yeah, but let’s back up a second because you just said something that we kind of touched a little bit on earlier, you said when you’re hearing those words of condemnation and you feel the condemnation creep back up on your shoulder, but you know, it’s not for you, let’s let’s break that down even more Emily, We’re talking about some people that are sitting in an environment that have not learned to discern for themselves or when they had a question about something, we’re not allowed to ask you to approach the question which makes them second guess themselves. Can I really hear from the Holy Spirit myself? So I don’t know that that some actually necessarily here feel that condemnation creeping back up on their shoulder and have a check in their spirit about it. So I think we got we got to break that down even more.

[0:48:59] Emily: I think that’s probably what was so hard was going, is he right or is there a check here? Is this a check in my spirit or am I just being rebellious because I can’t handle it? And

[0:49:14] Lois: I guess, you know, I’ve heard that from so many women and men that were made to feel like they were rebellious because they question things or they ask questions about stuff and I’m not talking about like literally rebelling against God and all that. We’re just talking about questioning and why this and why that. Well you just have a rebellious spirit, but I think when somebody hears that enough, one of two things is gonna happen, one they either are going to go, well, you already think I’m rebellious, so I might as well prove you right, or or they’re going to go, they’re gonna they’re gonna get to a point where they’re like, oh man, uh if all of these people are saying the same thing, I must not be able to hear from the Holy Spirit on my own

[0:50:14] Emily: right, and

[0:50:15] Lois: they end up back in that same trap, back in that same pew, where they’re hearing the same twisted narrative.

[0:50:26] Emily: I think the only way to combat that is to preach the truth and the gospel truth over yourself. So the minute you leave you, you preach the gospel to yourself, and this is what I mean by preaching the gospel to yourself. And we’ll talk about this in the class on legalism. But you got to get to a place where when that unworthiness and that Am I crazy? You know that back and forth condemnation, feeling rebellious. You know, am I rebellious or what that tension remind yourself who you are in christ? Because you are unworthy? You’re not enough.

[0:51:08] Lois: We are sure none of us are. And

[0:51:10] Emily: that’s what that’s beautiful. That’s actually part of the Gospel. That’s the good news. Like you don’t have to be enough. You don’t have to be worthy on your own. That’s where jesus comes in and rescued and redeem your story and now you are worthy. God looks at you and he sees jesus and you got it. Got to preach the Gospel to yourself multiple times a day. And

[0:51:39] Lois: yeah, I just

[0:51:41] Emily: come on last week, I was on a call with a like a business coach and we’re working through some um next steps for me and we ended up talking about worth and how I felt like I had to achieve something in order to feel worthy or that God approved of me and I was honestly crushed, I thought how did I get back here? And I sat in that for a minute and I went, wait a second, what do I tell other people? I tell other people that we need to preach the Gospel to ourselves multiple times a day. You need to surround yourself with like print out JD Greer’s Gospel Prayer I posted on instagram all the time, print it out, put it on your lock screen, do things in your life to remind yourself that when you’re feeling unworthy, you are worthy and it goes back to that identity, when you know that jesus has already won, you can let go of striving.

[0:52:42] Lois: Mhm, yep

[0:52:46] Emily: Uh huh

[0:52:49] Lois: man, it is um we could really talk about the Holy Spirit’s discernment um for a long time, but I hear the passion in your voice about this, I our listeners can’t see your face, but I can see your face and I and I see how it just tears you up to know that there are people that are still walking in that and don’t see it or don’t here it. Um because people, because because the scripture has been taken out of context and been beat over their heads with it for so long, it has shut out the voice of the Holy Spirit and so being out of that for a really long time thankfully. Um one of the things years ago I did a study, um Henry Blackerby study experiencing God. The Lord speaks to us and reveals more of himself to us through his word, through the discernment of the Holy Spirit through other believers. But for those of you who have been in an in environments and maybe you’re out of it, but you’re still trying to discern what is truth and what is not truth. I I would say that this is not an illegal is stick way, but I would say bury yourself back in the word of God because the Word of God is powerful, it is sharper than any two edged sword and like a red earlier piercing even to the marrow between the joints, in our bodies, in our minds and our hearts. Every time you open up scripture it is active and alive. That doesn’t mean the message changes, but it does mean that the Holy Spirit’s discernment, the work of the Holy Spirit takes place every time you open up scripture, let it touch your heart. So if you’re hearing things and you’re not sure your first step is to go to the word you say, well, I’m not I’m not studied like, you know, so and so or this or that, you know what, I’m going to just kind of say it straight up the so and so or this or that, that you’re probably listened to isn’t studied up on it either. They’re probably just spending the time taking Burbage out of context, taking the words out of context. So you get in the word, jesus, tore the veil so you could step into the throne of Grace. We’re not sending a high priest in there to take care of things for us any more. Open God’s word, Let him speak to you. His word is active and alive every time. Those pages are open every time, and do that first and sit in that you say, well, I’m still not hearing from him. You know what? Sometimes it takes a little while for us to get all of the junk out of our heart and our mind and our thought processes so that we can hear from

[0:56:40] Emily: him and

[0:56:41] Lois: so he can be our portion because he can’t be our portion. We can’t say what the salma says. My cup runneth over if we’ve got a lot of um churchy legalistic versus out of context, performance oriented stuff down in our cup. Our cup is not running over with the right thing. We’ve got to get all that stuff out of our cup and let God’s word, get in and get in and get in right, so that we begin to hear him, that’s God’s character, That is the nature of God. He wants us to draw close to him. He’s already done all the work. He’s done every bit of the work. So it’s not like we’re striving to do more. Like you said, it’s not like we’re striving to do more. And I’ve heard this said several times. We are not no, we are not trying to gain his favor because of what we do. We have his favor, your favor is grace, We have it. And so we step out of that knowing that we already have that. Then we’re listening to his voice, then where we are discerning. Um, and, and I don’t I know that this first can be taken out of context. I’m not trying to take it out of context tonight, but God is not the author of confusion. Mm It’s not like you’re gonna hear something from the pulpit and the Holy Spirit is telling you something different. Um and and you’re like, which one is God? No, you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you. You get into his word for your self and you hear even even um you know, scripture tells us to to test

[0:58:58] Emily: Yes. Yeah, it does

[0:59:00] Lois: scripture tells us test the spirit, scripture tells us to to test the word. I’m very thankful that I sit under a pastor, that tells us two, test his words to look in scripture

[0:59:19] Emily: right

[0:59:21] Lois: for ourselves

[0:59:22] Emily: and what you said about getting the junk out. What when I was saying, you ought to speak life over yourself and preach the gospel to yourself and remind you, I mean, there’s examples of even the apostle paul preaching the gospel to himself when he’s down in a pit, you will you might not believe that when you start speaking that over yourself one day, you might feel like you’re in a pit, or you might have just made a mistake and you might feel that failure just weigh in heavy speak it anyway, it is truth, it is God’s truth. Even if you don’t believe it, so you can just speak it out until your heart aligns with his, his word,

[1:00:09] Lois: aligns with his character and who he is and who he says that you are and scripture is very clear that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in christ. Yes, and if you have accepted jesus christ as your savior, if you have asked him to come in and be the lord of your life, you are in christ. And so when that discernment comes, when the Holy Spirit brings discernment in your life, because he does and don’t let anybody tell you that he doesn’t that he tells them first and then they’ll let you know what he wants you to do. Um you know, unless you’re five, that’s not the right narrative, okay. Unless you’re five years old and yes, you need to do what your mom and dad tell you to do. But um uh completely forgot where I was coming with. Point is there is therefore not now no condemnation for those who are in christ and the Holy Spirit when he talks to us, when he helps us discern in our spirit, there should always be like if he’s convicting us, there is always comfort along with the conviction because the work of the Cross has been done. So when the conviction comes, there’s always that that hope and that light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, that says, and this is your way of escape. And this is what I want you to do. You know, It’s not you are you know, not at all. You know what you’ve done to find who you are, you know. Um Yeah, So if yeah, you get where I’m going with that. Yeah.

[1:02:03] Emily: So as we close, I’d love to just have one more quote about discernment in like a couple more verses, Hannah Anderson says that discernment is a promise. It’s the promise that we might have insight in the midst of confusion that we might find healing in the Brokenness. It is the promise that we might taste and see that the Lord truly is good. And then Psalm 27 13 says unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. We can see good right now. It’s not the world is broken. But like she said at the beginning that we don’t have to see the burnt edges and soggy bottom and toss it in the trash right here and now in this world, we can see God moving and we can see him in his creation in the land of the Living. And that gives us hope.

[1:03:14] Lois: Yeah, I love the song way Maker. I love that worship song and it gets to one of the bridges and says, even when I can’t see it, you’re working. Even when I don’t feel it, you’re working. You never stuff huh listeners guys, girls, whoever is listening, the Holy Spirit is doing work in your life because he lives inside of you. He is not sitting there dormant. Um, and waiting to be activated. So may I encourage you to get in the word? And may I encourage you to pray and just ask the Lord to allow you to hear his voice. To allow let me encourage you that when you’re listening to a message that you are just praying in your spirit. God, the Holy Spirit. Give me discernment in this moment I want to hear from you. Is this is this right? Is this um does this align with who God is? Does this align with his character? Um Does this decision align with who God is and who he wants me to be? Um and I just, I’ll just tell you Emily. I just feel like um as we close tonight, I just feel like I need to, I need to pray over anyone who is listening to this episode. Is that all right? We can you. Yes. Yeah, father. We just want to thank you first of all for the opportunity to just open your word and talk about things that you have led us to to talk about. I want to just thank you for that. And then Lord, anyone who is listening tonight to this episode, I don’t know who that’s going to be, but Lord, I am just asking for you right now in this moment to work in their lives in a way that you reveal something more of yourself to them that you reveal um part of your character to them that they are not currently aware of. I know Lord, for me when I’m walking through something, even if it’s a good thing or if it’s a difficult thing, I’m learning more and more that most of the time it’s because you are revealing something else about your goodness that I had yet experienced. And so Father, I just pray that that takes place tonight, that our listeners will either continue to dig into your word or that they will begin to dig into your word. And Lord, I realized for some that’s probably a triggering statement because maybe they were raised in a legalistic situation that you had to, like Emily said a few weeks ago, you know, read 10 chapters every morning and this made you a better christian. Er this made you spiritual father. I’m just asking just tear all of that legalism that ferrous a vehicle, you know, standing on the corner, public prayer concept, don’t heal on the sabbath concept and just tear it out of lives because you came Mhm. To live on this earth, to have your ministry here on this earth and to untwist the narrative that had been taking place four thousands of years. And so I’m just asking Lord for you to continue to do that work in the lives of those listening, continue to that work in in Emily’s life, continue to do that work in my life. And every time we open up scripture for us to be reminded that it is living, it is active. It’s constantly convicting and comforting. We thank you for who you are. I thank you for um, just this time that we could just sit and talk about who you are in your precious name. Amen. Yeah.