[0:00:01] Lois: scripture says oh my people their oppressors are Children and women rule over them. And God has given us a woman as vice president and a child as president end of quote
[0:00:20] Emily: welcome to the R. F. W. P. Where we are seeking truth and finding God’s heart. I’m your co host. Emily Louis and with me is my co host, Lois Mcnair. And tonight we’re jumping into what some of you may feel like is a hot topic and you might not agree with us but in any case we might just ruffle some feathers.
[0:00:44] Lois: I brought my feathers so we could ruffle them.
[0:00:48] Emily: I love it so much. I love it when they just they get ruffled. They drop and ruffle.
[0:00:56] Lois: I may wear when Mhm.
[0:00:58] Emily: That’s perfect.
[0:01:01] Lois: So you may be wondering where that quote came from. Uh huh. That quote came from an expository preacher that I have listened to for years and was sadly disappointed to hear this statement. The quote came from john Macarthur this past week At the G three conference and his quote took place in a in a panel in a question and answer panel and unfortunately we don’t have the full recording because it hasn’t been published yet. So some may say well you’re taking it out of context. Um not taking it out of context because this quote with this picture was literally posted by the G-3 conference themselves on Facebook on Twitter and it says scripture says oh my people their oppressors are Children and women rule over them and God has given us a woman as vice president and a child as President Dr john Macarthur.
[0:02:20] Emily: And the reason we even got into this topic was I saw this quote and I said, Lois help me out reading Isaiah three. And the way I’ve been taught Isaiah three is that it is a curse that to have Children ruling over you and a curse to have women as your leaders. And I was like, help me untwist this basically and we did some digging and some research and we’re bringing it to you so that we can help you untwist this narrative that is being perpetuated through passages like Isaiah 3, 12,
[0:02:58] Lois: Right? And and we’ll talk more about how this verse has been taken out of context And we’ll get into that a little bit more. But at first I just want to read Isaiah chapter three um in Isaiah chapter three, of course we know that Isaiah is is prophesying and that God is giving the words, but here in Isaiah chapter three, um this is basically Isaiah prophesying what God has told him that this is going to be the national disintegration of Jerusalem and Judah because of their sin, because they have turned from God once again. But these are God’s chosen people as we know in scripture. But in chapter three, I’m going to pop down diverse, 10 tell the Righteous, it will be well with them for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds. But woe to the wicked disaster is upon them. They will be paid back for what their hands have done. Youths oppress my people. Women rule over them. Oh my people, your guides lead you astray. They turn you from the path. The Lord takes his place in court. He rises to judge the people. Okay, another translation. Tell her righteous that it will go well for them for they will eat the fruit of their labour. Whoa! The wicked, It will go badly for them for what they have done will be done to them. Youths oppress my people and women rule over them. My people, your leaders mislead you they continue, they confuse the direction of your paths. And then in the English standard version, I’m just gonna read verse 12. My people infants are their oppressors and women rule over them. Oh my people, your guides mislead you and they have swallowed up the course of your paths. So that’s just, that is the verse that john Macarthur is talking about here. And I’m not 100% sure I look forward to when the livestream is published to listen to all of it. Um but I’m possibly thinking because the roe v wade, the roe v wade situation. Um an abortion and the G three conference, they kind of were hitting the news or whatever at the same time. So this may have been in direct response um to biden’s agenda about things, to Kamala Harris agenda about things and I understand that. But we’re going to get into um what that verse who it was directed towards, what it actually means and why it cannot be used in the context that it was used in this statement.
[0:06:16] Emily: Right? So first of all, like you said, who was it directed to? Oh my people. And I think it says oh my people,
[0:06:27] Lois: yeah, my people.
[0:06:29] Emily: So at first it’s directed toward a specific people group and we know God’s chosen people are Israel and a stretch like a spiritual application, you could say christians, but in no way is God referring to America and to apply this to our country is really bad. Um exit jesus. It’s like, first of all, I know all scripture is given for our profit in our benefit for us to learn from. But mostly it’s to learn how God deals with his people and God’s character not to pull a verse out and be like, yep, this applies to our time in history when it absolutely doesn’t.
[0:07:16] Lois: Right? So if you can’t use um Jeremiah 29 11, if if we’re being told that in context, Jeremiah 29 11, for I know the plans that I have, you declares the Lord by these same expository is that you can’t use that verse. It does. It it’s not it’s not applicable to you or um Philippians 4 13, I can do all things through christ who gives me strength if if that, you know that’s not applicable to you, then you can’t take Isaiah chapter three and verse 12 and apply it to our current situation in our country,
[0:07:55] Emily: right? Exactly.
[0:07:56] Lois: You can’t have both. And then you’ve got to be one or the other.
[0:08:01] Emily: Right? And to the next point uh that you made, how can we take this verse? And obviously there’s many different ways we can look at a verse historically metaphorically literally. And when we look at it literally this, the way that this verse was used falls apart. And you made this point, we can’t take a verse part of it literally and then flip and be like, oh part of its metaphorical. So in the reference to you’ve been saying kamala and I’ve always said kamala in my head
[0:08:42] Lois: and and and you and you could very well be, I can’t talk to, you
[0:08:47] Emily: could very well be wrong to,
[0:08:49] Lois: you could very well be correct. It’s it’s probably, what did I say? I think it’s Kamala
[0:08:56] Emily: kamala.
[0:08:58] Lois: Yes, Miss Harris, I apologize if you’re pronouncing your name incorrectly. But yes, so here’s the deal. Um, some of the commentaries that we looked through, some of the commentaries that we, that we read and um I think you have one of those to kind of um go over with us, but some say that it was metaphorical. Some say that it was literal, but most bible scholars say that um hear the word child or youth or infants is not specifically talking about a child, a youth an infant. That is a metaphor for unskilled, unprepared. Um not wise leaders. So if that is how john Macarthur feels about biden metaphorically, I can understand where he would get that. But then given his past comments regarding women and regarding women’s roles and telling beth more to go home and and multiple statements that have been made. You can’t turn around, you cannot you cannot call joe biden a child metaphorically as as an unskilled leader, poor leader and then turn around and say literally the country is being cursed because or were in judgment because we have a female vice president. So you can’t And others may disagree with me. But the way that I am interpreting what he said is that one he’s not literally calling biden a child Biden’s in his 70’s. He’s not calling him, he’s in his 70s, right? I don’t remember don’t quote me on that. But you know, he’s not literally calling him a child. He’s but he’s saying he’s a child. And then and if he’s using this verse, oh my people, you know, Children and women will rule over you. But then he turns around and he talks about Kamala Harris literally that a woman should not be ruling over the people. You can’t have both. Its. You’ve either got to take that one verse, you know, as an example metaphorically or or the verse isn’t metaphorical but using the term child and women. Exactly. So I’d like for you to
[0:11:48] Emily: one of the points. Yeah.
[0:11:50] Lois: Show that or read that commentary that we’re going
[0:11:54] Emily: to read this one. It’s a little bit of a longer one. But that’s OK. All of the points. So this is the reason commentary. And honestly, I don’t know the bent or the theological background of all of these commentaries. Just reading it for what it says. Sure. So Isaiah 3 12. As for my people in this and the following verses says dr dot the Prophet describes the incapacity and weakness, the ignorance and corruption, the oppression and cruelty of the priests and rulers of the people such as we learn from history. They were before the Babylon ish. Babylon ish captivity. Children are their oppressors, persons younger in years of little experience and who have not due consideration but following the impulse of their passions without regard to anything else, have the power in their hands which they use at their pleasure of exacting tribute of the people and women rule over them weak and effeminate rulers. Or perhaps he speaks of the wives and concubines, Other kings and great men who buy their arts, gaining an ascendancy over their husbands, induced them to act as they desired though frequently to the people’s prejudice and in a manner contrary to all the laws. And thus it was in the reign of Johore um King of Judah whose wife pathologic, a cruel and weak woman occasioned great disorders in the State C second Chronicles chapter 21 22 thus undoubtedly it frequently happened after the time Isaiah uttered this prophecy. I want to point out that this was a specific woman. There were specific examples of women being um oppressors and it wasn’t like all women. There were specific examples that we see in Israel’s history of this literally coming to pass. Right? If that’s the way you read the passage. And
[0:13:55] Lois: then is that why you, jezebel and Jezebel, one of the commentary says um they did not provide good precedents but chronologically we have to re be reminded that the time of the judges where you had Deborah and holder. Am I saying that right? Um we’re wise and and God had put them in in place. Um and then we can talk about the sovereignty of God if God puts leaders in place, we may not like them or we may like them, but in God’s sovereignty there in this place. And john Macarthur saying that these leaders we currently have in place are there because um we’re we’re being judged as a country like the Israelites were being judged mm hmm If I understand his statement correctly.
[0:15:00] Emily: Mhm Yeah, that’s reading into it a little bit with a lot of history of his, the way he speaks of women
[0:15:12] Lois: and also of leaders.
[0:15:15] Emily: Yes, yes. Very true. Very true.
[0:15:19] Lois: So if we’re going to call joe biden a child, if he’s going to call joe biden a child, I think some people that kind of kicked back on this on twitter was like and yet you we’re a major supporter of our former president and then basically made this statement because of policy, you only a true believer would vote for the former president and then this past may he did an entire leadership message series teaching using our former president as an example and his narcissism as what not to do in leadership. So I think that’s one of the things that’s just like you can’t have it both ways. I so
[0:16:17] Emily: anyway, I’m going to switch to I think we got the point of that commentary and I’m going to switch to the barns. Notes on the bible. As for my people, Children are their oppressors. This refers doubtless to their civil rulers. They who ought to have been their protectors, oppress them by grievous taxes and burdens. But whether this means that their rulers, the rulers of the people were literally minors or that they were So in disposition and character has been a question. The original world word is the singular number something I cannot pronounce And means a child or an infant. It may however be taken collectively as a noun of multitude or as denoting more than one to whom references made here cannot easily be determined but possibly a has who began to rain when he was 20 years old. Second King 16 to or it may mean that the character of the princes and rulers was that of inexperienced Children. Unqualified for government? Are their oppressors literally? Mm hmm. Are their oppressors literally are their eggs actors or their taxers? The collectors of the revenue and women rule over them. This is not to be taken literally. But it means either that the rulers were under the influence of the harem or the females
[0:17:44] Lois: of the court or
[0:17:45] Emily: that they were effeminate and destroy. Destitute of vigor and manliness in council. The cep to geant and the calvi render this verse substantially alike. They dye eggs, actors strip my people as they who gather the grapes strip the vineyard. Uh they which lead the hebrew. They who blessed the Cali blessed. This refers doubtless to the public teachers and the false prophets who blessed or flatter the people and who promised them safety in their sins, causing the two air, lead the lead you astray or lead you into sin and danger and destroy which is hebrew for swallow up. So that’s a whole verse. You might, you can back that up and slow down and listen to it again if you want. Or and we’ll link these resources in the show notes. So you can go over them yourself too. But this one brings out some interesting points which is kind of like the third layer. So there’s are we going to take this literally are going to take this figuratively and then some versions interpret that word differently. So rather than saying women rule over you, they say um your oppressors rule over you and there’s a whole lot, there’s a whole lot of people smarter than me who explained it from like Hebrew. But I’m gonna read you the let me see the new english translation of this first because I think it’s interesting that some translators even um translated this differently. So to remind you what we’ve been reading in Isaiah 3 12 Youth Oppress my people and women rule over them. My people, your leaders mislead you, they confuse the direction of your paths and this is the any t oppressors treat my people cruelly, creditors rule over them. Notice the switch from creditors or women to creditors. My people’s leaders mislead them. They give you confusing directions. So, just some alternate perspective on this, on this race. Yeah.
[0:20:13] Lois: And he even says like if somebody like somebody who owns a coat is going to end up ruling over you instead of those that have been considered an honor. And I want to get back to the point that you said earlier. And I can’t remember if you said it in our in our recording time or before we started recording, but you mentioned, we need to be reminded who’s oppressing these people. It is not it is it’s not an outside force, it’s not another country, it’s not another king, it’s literally people who have promised to follow God, who are supposed to be following God, who have stated that they will follow God and they’re not doing it and Isaiah is telling them because you continue to do this, then this is going to happen, right.
[0:21:09] Emily: Um he said it
[0:21:12] Lois: and so again, I look back at um is is it was john Macarthur statement, is he saying that literally this passage is talking about today’s political environment and he has been an expository preacher for decades and just, you know, whether you agree with him with everything or not, he has, he has been in the past has been a strong expository preacher, verse by verse in context, everything. And so several of the statements that have been made that have been brought to light over the last few years seem to be out of character for what he would normally Do and say so to take Isaiah chapter three verse 12 and use it in a context of today and, and and the fact that um this was one of the quotes like portrayed on social media, like, wow, we’re really proud of this one when literally some of the other men that spoke at the conference and the things that they were quoted on, some of those were just solid things.
[0:22:50] Emily: Right. And it was a stinging comment is how they said it. While this is such a stinging, like, so I don’t know they were proud of and like you said, it was in common, nobody have replaced extra jesus. So we’d rather have something that’s catchy and pointed.
[0:23:13] Lois: It was, it was, it was like it wasn’t and just so our listeners know like you can look this up, it wasn’t someone else or a critic saying that his comments were stinging. It was whoever their social media person is. I don’t know if it was bragging, but basically, yeah, buddy, here we go. This is, this is what john said today and they’re the ones who said stinging comments.
[0:23:46] Emily: Mhm Right, right. So this is from 1996, it says we must never engage in defamation and denigration of non christians when christians become political sinners become the enemy instead of the mission field. Mm John MacArthur said this in his commentary on Trus in 1996 and that’s why we reference, I shouldn’t speed past that.
[0:24:21] Lois: Whoa,
[0:24:25] Emily: so that’s why we say he, he is a bible believer. He is good at, is that the word exporting? I don’t think so.
[0:24:38] Lois: He’s good as
[0:24:40] Emily: teaching the bible the way teaching the bible,
[0:24:45] Lois: Yes,
[0:24:45] Emily: yeah. Uh
[0:24:49] Lois: and he, and part of that is a solo script, aura, solo script or a, you know, uh, is part of the reformation and part of the reformed theology. So it saddens me that statements like that are made and continued to be made over the last few years, um because it begins to discredit the truth that has been spoken for so many years and I know that there’s gonna be some people upset with us because they’re huge john Macarthur’s fan and you’ve got to understand that it’s this is not lump sum, We are not those, you know, one thing or the other cancel culture. If somebody says one thing, I’m never listening to him again. No, But but when things are not, when things are taken out of context and as far as we know, um because I didn’t listen to the whole Q and A. But as far as we know, this has been, this verse was taken out of context, whatever, it was an answer to the fact it goes back to the fact that they themselves posted the quote with no context. So therefore we are allowed to talk about it in this context. But I want to take us back and remind us that in this passage, this is Isaiah telling the people because you have not stayed with God the leadership, because you’ve had the daughters of Zion doing this because you’ve you’re oppressing your own people and not following God’s commands. This is coming, but the righteous, it will be okay, You’ll do well. But those that don’t repent, this is this will happen. So he’s talking two God’s people, he’s talking to believers. He’s not talking to unbelievers, he’s not talking to America and you either use the passage for in in its context or you use it the way that seemingly john Macarthur has used this passage. You can’t have it both ways.
[0:27:36] Emily: No, you can’t. And I like to read another quote from the conference. It’s by David Miller, which honestly, I don’t know who this is, but he spoke at the G three conference also and this quote, another quote that they posted to their social media says this, you ought to make a sharp distinction between the exposition of scripture, I guess it’s not exporting its exposition, right?
[0:28:07] Lois: Yes. Um, distinction
[0:28:10] Emily: between the exposition of scripture and the imposition of some dude’s mind. So that’s what we have to discern.
[0:28:22] Lois: Wait, was he responding to john Macarthur statement?
[0:28:27] Emily: I have no idea, but I’m gonna guess not. But everybody on social media is like, uh hello, these two aren’t the same, which is there? Right. So maybe somebody else said next time they should invite beth more because at least she teaches the bible and john Macarthur, this is what you said to me, john Macarthur should go home and make me a sandwich. Beth moore can teach the bible
[0:29:01] Lois: and
[0:29:02] Emily: some of you just clicked off just now. But for those of you hanging with us. Thank you for being here
[0:29:08] Lois: subscribe some of you just unsubs nasty out us for for um you actually wanted me to call Beth more and see if she would come on this episode and discuss this. I’m thinking she probably wouldn’t, I’m I’m thinking that she’s had a her fill of responses and needing to defend herself with some of the john Macarthur statements, so
[0:29:36] Emily: probably, but I can’t hurt to ask.
[0:29:40] Lois: It’s true. We’ll ask her, we’ll ask her for another time.
[0:29:44] Emily: Uh, yep, yep, yep. Yeah,
[0:29:48] Lois: I, I really would like to hear your comments in on our Youtube channel for those of you that are, that will be seeing this on our Youtube channel, comment below. Um, if you get, if you get a copy of the auditory of this and you hear a little bit more in context or you you want to hear this or if you were there live and we know that, that there were probably, um people that were there live or watching the livestream. So, um, again, our position in what we do and what we are passionate about is a new twisting the narrative that has been either spoken for years over men and women in church or narratives that are beginning to be spoken that are not sticking to scripture, yep. And so that’s what we’re gonna do.
[0:30:57] Emily: Absolutely. And before we go, can we leave everybody on a Micro Joy? Happy note. Oh, this isn’t my micro joy. My husband used Micro Joy in a sentence today. Oh, he did,
[0:31:13] Lois: he did. He was like,
[0:31:14] Emily: it’s kind of like a micro Joy. And I was like, oh,
[0:31:19] Lois: that’s so thoughtful, Wait a minute. Does this, does this look like the daughters of Zion. I was like, you know, that we’re not being obedient here, I’ll pull my feathers out of my,
[0:31:33] Emily: it’s definitely not modest apparel with your breuder hair and your feathers.
[0:31:39] Lois: That’s true
[0:31:40] Emily: for anybody who’s missing the video. You’ve got to go to youtube.
[0:31:45] Lois: Yes, because were that funny? You
[0:31:51] Emily: need
[0:31:51] Lois: to see these. We crack each other up, we crack each other out. So um, your micro joy was the fact that your husband used micro joy in a sentence. Sure. Right.
[0:32:03] Emily: Oh that was my micro joy. But yeah,
[0:32:07] Lois: come on, tell us what your micro joy.
[0:32:11] Emily: So my, my great joy is today. I got to take one of my girls to a doctor appointment and spend some, you know, not a lot of quality time, but a little bit of extra time with her. So that was sweet and healthy and strong and everything checks out. Um, we’re looking at so yeah, it was fun. It’s great.
[0:32:37] Lois: That’s good Because having four girls, I’m sure that each one of them went some individual times. So you know, even a doctor’s appointment a little ways away got to be a good time with her,
[0:32:54] Emily: yep. Sure was awesome.
[0:32:57] Lois: Uh My micro joy, honestly the last couple of days has been these phenomenal sunsets where I live.
[0:33:07] Emily: I
[0:33:08] Lois: Know you love clouds and the clouds have just been like 15 1000 different types of shapes and then the sunsets have just coming down and just gorgeous. There’s been true silver linings on a few of them. So my and bobby and I I told him I said the only thing I want to do this evening, this was a couple nights ago, I said, let’s just drive where there’s an open field, so we can just watch the sunset and uh and then we did what we used to do when we were kids and figured out what different clouds looked like. So that was my micro joy.
[0:33:54] Emily: That’s fun. I love it so much.
[0:33:59] Lois: Yeah. If you haven’t liked or subscribe to our Youtube channel, please do. And if you’re just listening to audio, would you please um whatever you’re listening to If it’s Apple, um or Spotify or any of the other places where you listen to your podcasts, would you leave us a review, we’d love to hear from you? And um leave us a review.
[0:34:31] Emily: We will be doing more of these response videos in the future. So make sure you look for those little bit shorter episode, Maybe a different format to help you untwist narratives um in your life and straighten our paths with the bible end with christ, um seeking truth and finding God’s heart.
[0:34:56] Lois: Yeah. Until next time, seek truth. Find God’s heart and go UNtwist those narratives.
[0:35:04] Emily: Mhm