[0:00:01] Emily: Hi there Friends and welcome to the R. F. W. P. Where we are seeking truth and finding God’s heart. My name is Emily Louis and with me is my co host

[0:00:12] Lois: Lois Mcnair

[0:00:13] Emily: high High today we are bringing you the first of a couple of episodes around forgiveness. But before we jump into this really big and kind of heavy but can be freeing topic, we’re going to start with Micro Joys. So Lois, what’s your Micro joy today?

[0:00:41] Lois: So my micro joy, Is that the fact if you if you hear my voice um it’s different because I’ve been sick and you know if I cough it, I promise I haven’t been smoking for 40 years but it is going to sound like it. But um I think my micro joy in the middle of all of that is the fact that um my favorite, my favorite drink from Starbucks when I’m not feeling well is called a Medicine ball. And a lot of people don’t know about it but it’s it’s gained momentum and it’s um it just makes you feel better. It’s it’s steamed lemonade with two different types of tea bags and honey. And um so my Micro Joy this past week has just been that I’ve been frequenting the Starbucks specifically for the Medicine Ball

[0:01:45] Emily: because it makes to try

[0:01:47] Lois: that.

[0:01:48] Emily: I like it.

[0:01:51] Lois: I needed one tonight before we recorded. For sure. For sure. But I know that sounds silly but if you go to Starbucks, if you if you like lemonade, if you like tea, if you you know like honey or honey syrup, you say, hey, extra honey syrup. But um, if you’re not feeling that great, go ask him for the medicine ball. I’m going to do that

[0:02:16] Emily: fun. I’m sorry that you’ve been sick though. Yeah,

[0:02:21] Lois: that’s kind of stunt set. Yeah.

[0:02:26] Emily: So my micro joy, let’s see. My micro joy is probably the walk I took around the block before we recorded. I just haven’t been outside that much. Yesterday. I worked outside a little but been unpacking boxes and trying to hang doors and all those things because

[0:02:47] Lois: we just, I thought your micro joy, I thought your micro joy was gonna be that you finally got into your house, right? But I guess that’s my cue.

[0:02:57] Emily: It’s not, but that’s pretty great. It’s been really fun.

[0:03:03] Lois: So I should say that my micro joy is that you’re wearing the tank top that I sent you?

[0:03:10] Emily: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I almost said that was my micro joy. So we’re on the same page.

[0:03:17] Lois: Yeah. And I don’t know if if our, if our um listeners are seeing it forwards or backwards, but it says freedom just in case it’s backwards on the screen.

[0:03:31] Emily: Right, yep. It’s perfect. Yeah. And last time you and I recorded together, we talked about God’s faithfulness and just like seeing the evidence of his goodness. So we asked for open mic responses and we have a few and I’m gonna play those for you.

[0:03:54] Lois: Oh good. I haven’t heard these. So I, I’m looking forward to listening to him.

[0:04:00] Emily: All right. Here’s the first one.

[0:04:07] Lois: You sure, nope. Is this when the big font comes up across the screen and says technical difficulties, we’ll be back in a moment.

[0:04:23] Emily: Yeah, let me try a different one.

[0:04:26] Listener Okay. So I wanted to share an evidence of God’s goodness in our lives. My husband and I have been I had a really rough year. It’s been a really tough year for our family. It’s just been one thing after another and we’ve been trying to have a baby since the beginning of the year and I’ve had two miscarriages um since then and we found out we were pregnant again earlier a couple months ago. And yeah, we went to the doctor and they weren’t sure if the baby was gonna make it or not. Um they were a little concerned about some of my blood levels. So I went back in yesterday too, have another ultrasound and they said everything looks perfect and everything looks good and it looks like this baby might make it. So we’re really excited about that and this will be our fourth baby.

[0:05:28] Lois: Uh huh. That’s awesome.

[0:05:31] Emily: Isn’t that amazing? Uh

[0:05:33] Lois: That’s amazing, You know? And and even when they were walking through the miscarriages, God was still faithful, right? He’s not just faithful when things work out, he’s faithful in the midst of our hurts and our trials. Oh my goodness! What a what a beautiful testimony.

[0:05:57] Emily: Just keep praying for laura. Their baby is like eight weeks along right now. So yeah,

[0:06:04] Lois: Okay. And here is our 2nd 1.

[0:06:08] Listener: Hello, I’m amy. And I’d say the biggest monument of God’s grace that I’ve had recently

[0:06:14] Listener: was not

[0:06:15] Listener: long ago. Um things were getting really difficult with my I FB family

[0:06:20] Listener: to the point where I just

[0:06:21] Listener: had to move and on my moving day, my moving van was all packed up. My mom made my dad give me a hug and I told him I loved him and he said you bet I felt so alone. But on the way down my cats who were drugged up for their own sake and mine or would wake up and kind of cry a little bit and be upset and I just stuck my fingers in between the grates and told me everything’s gonna be okay, I’m not leaving you. And it was like in that moment God just wrapped me in his piece and told me that he wasn’t leaving either. Just like I wouldn’t leave them, he wouldn’t leave me and everything was going to be okay. And that is huge.

[0:07:07] Lois: wow, wow, packing everything up and moving away because you know what God wants you to do and who he is and you can’t stay in an unhealthy situation, feeling all alone and God shows up with the small analogy of yeah her loving on her cats and just mhm man,

[0:07:47] Emily: I love those little moments that God whispers says, hey,

[0:07:54] Lois: mm it’s okay.

[0:07:56] Emily: Yeah, I’m still with you.

[0:07:58] Lois: I love the fact that she felt so wrapped up, I’m not leaving you, I’m not leaving you, I’m right here. Mhm. Because one of the things that we that we hear a lot um from people who have stepped out of the I. F. B. In the last few years is that, you know, if you step out, your whole life is going to fall apart and you know, you’re a heretic or you’re this or you’re that and you know, you’re going to get divorced and your kids are gonna go off the deep end and or you’ll never find the man of God, you’re supposed to marry or you know, whatever. And uh I love I don’t love what she’s having to go through, I love the courage that she has to step into it. And I love the fact that she felt God’s presence in that moment where she felt alone and then he said, no, you’re not alone, Kiddo, That’s good. Okay, and here’s the next one, I think this is a two parter. So

[0:09:04] Listener: hi, my name is Nicole in one of the stories that sticks to my mind most about the promises of God was when I was seeking God coming out of the Pentecostal Church and I wanted to hear the stories and the testimonies of others who had come out of somewhat similar situations and the church that we were attending, they did thanksgiving testimony services and they did it for like a week or two before thanksgiving and I remember asking God to here everybody’s story. I didn’t want to just hear the typical people who got up there and told every year um it was always the same handful of people, but I told God, I was like I want to hear all of their stories and that year they took the entire month of november and pretty much everybody in the church got the opportunity to share their story which was awesome. Um and then at the end of the month, I remember the pastor getting up and saying this is something that we normally do. I don’t know why, I just feel like we need to keep on going and sharing our testimonies. So that was something that was a specific prayer that I had asked that God answered and in that it led to my salvation,

[0:10:29] Emily: that is so fun,

[0:10:31] Lois: it led to her salvation, That is amazing.

[0:10:37] Emily: Mm it’s so fun,

[0:10:39] Lois: it makes me think of that of the worship song, This is my testimony from Death to life. Yes, Grace read my story, I’ll testify. Oh I love that, wow, that gives me chills.

[0:10:54] Emily: These were so good,

[0:10:56] Lois: So good. Yeah,

[0:10:58] Emily: mhm let’s wrap the episode right there.

[0:11:01] Lois: Yeah, I think we could wrap up the episode right there just from those three testimonies of God’s faithfulness. That’s beautiful. I love

[0:11:11] Emily: it. We need but we’re not going anywhere. You’re stuck with us guys.

[0:11:19] Emily: So we want to start with scripture. How about it? Yeah, we’re gonna start with the story of joseph, which is one of the most beautiful detailed pictures of forgiveness that we have in scripture, aside from the forgiveness that christ offers threw himself to us. Uh this picture just details things in a way that other stories don’t. And so we want to take the time to work through what this looked like in joseph’s life as it wasn’t just this one and done wrap a bow on it. God meant it for good. You meant it for evil, but it’s all okay because that’s not how the story went. Um so Lois is going to start reading some and we’re gonna unpack it a little bit.

[0:12:19] Lois: Yeah, and the more we talked about this Emily, the more we realized that this was not going to be a one episode. No, um twisting of the narrative or just talking about forgiveness. Um you know, and we have, there are so many verses in scripture, unforgiveness. You have Ephesians 4 32 be kind to one another tenderhearted forgiving one another even as God for christ’s sake has forgiven you and then we have colossians 3 13 and proverbs 17 9 and Mark 11 25 and on and on. Mhm. But like you said, sometimes we know the story of joseph. A lot of people know the story of joseph but we like to use that, you meant it for evil God meant it for good, which is phenomenal. I’ve used that over the last four years from some of our journey but there was a lot A lot more to it and I can’t you know, we can’t go into the whole thing because we’re talking genesis chapter where we’re kind of getting going here Genesis chapter three 42 through Genesis chapter 50. So I’m not going to read all of that right tonight. Um but yeah, so it starts out that when Jacob saw that there was grain in Egypt because there’s a famine, Jacob said to his sons, Why do you look at one another? And he said indeed I have heard that there is grain in Egypt go down to that place and buy for us there that we may live and not die. So Joseph’s 10 brothers went down to buy grain in Egypt. But Jacob did not send Joseph’s brother Benjamin with his brothers for he said Um lest some calamity befall him. So we’re just talking about the beginning of Genesis 42, there’s a famine going on in the land. Jacob hears that there’s grain and this particular commentary um I just I have to I’m gonna be referring to it a lot over the next couple of episodes but he points out Jacob said to his sons, why do you look at one another, Like mm when I say that there’s grain in Egypt and he said, you know he’s like we have reason to believe that this is the first year of the famine. Okay. And it didn’t take long for the big problems the world to find their way to the home of Jacob where joseph originated and was sold into slavery. Um and then he says, why do you look at one another? Jacob noticed a strange expression among the brothers when Egypt was mentioned, wow, because the brothers knew it was likely joseph was sold as a slave there specifically.

[0:15:28] Emily: Okay,

[0:15:30] Lois: so their conscience made them feel terrible any time Egypt was mentioned. The father noted the look of perplexity in his son’s face is literally the phrase means to look questioning lee at one another and that’s by loop hold. Um The word Egypt in their ears must have sounded like the word rope in the house of a man who has hanged himself. And that’s called my barn house Because Joseph’s brothers had lived with this terrible secret secret for 20 years. They never talked about it but it never left them.

[0:16:10] Emily: Mm hmm.

[0:16:11] Lois: So any mention of joseph or Egypt brought back the guilt and they needed to be set free from the power of their terrible secret. So to me this starts the foundation of the journey through repentance forgiveness testing. Are you really repentant? And then as we know the ultimate forgiveness. So this is kind of what we want to unpack over the next few episodes.

[0:16:47] Emily: Um Right, so it feels like we’re kind of jumping right into talking about forgiveness and what it isn’t because it isn’t this reconciliation for forgiveness is sake. And I heard, well, I’ve actually heard a couple of pastors say it, but the first pastor I heard say it was Carrie Schmidt say that a lot of people are holding on to unforgiveness because of fear. They’re scared that if they forgive that means they have to reconcile with this person. And because we think that it’s just this big thing that we have to do, which forgiveness is a big deal, letting go of our own need for vengeance is a big deal, like letting go of those hurts and saying, okay, I’m not I’m not going to wish that evil on so and so or I’m not going to continue to have that conversation in my head where I am right all the time, letting go, that’s really hard in itself. But when we pile on all these things that forgiveness is not, it makes it seem so hard and we just like, hold on to it, like, nope, I’m not, I’m not forgiving because it’s so scary to think like, I would have to do all these other things too. So when we

[0:18:10] Lois: would that be a narrative that you heard growing up?

[0:18:14] Emily: Yeah, yeah, I always thought forgiveness was like a quick thing, It was just like a decision you made, kind of like the salvation by just praying a prayer, it’s like this mental decision you make I forgive and therefore now I forget. So now it doesn’t impact me anymore. It’s like this magical thing that you’re not allowed to, like you’re never allowed to revisit, you’re not allowed to talk about how the situation affected you because you just forgive and um yeah, and of course there was a little bit of nuance to you forgive for your sake and then when somebody comes to you and apologize as you forgive for their sake that was taught, but it was very much weaponized from a leader who wasn’t repentant.

[0:19:07] Lois: Oh girl, we have so much to unpack over the next few episodes. So y’all hang with us because we realize that there’s probably gonna be a lot of back and forth and um because this is a huge subject and a huge need to understand what forgiveness is and isn’t and yeah, so, um I think you and I both have some statements of what forgiveness is not and what it is. And as we just starting here at the beginning of this story of Jacob sending his sons to Egypt, they haven’t even encountered joseph yet, but we already see They’ve been hanging on to this for 20 years and we’ll talk a little bit later, has there been true repentance, but tell us a little bit some of the things that you have heard of what forgiveness is not

[0:20:09] Emily: sure. So forgiveness is not forgetting, it’s not the same thing. Um, forgiveness is not just for other people. Um you’ll probably need to forgive yourself for some things. Yeah, I mean, I guarantee it, I don’t know if you’re carrying some things, but forgiveness is not just for other people, forgive yourself. I saw a tweet tonight before we recorded, I said if being hard on yourself worked, it would have worked like years ago. Uh and forgiveness does not negate justice. It doesn’t it doesn’t negate consequences. So there’s a lot of natural consequences. I believe that God put into place. It’s not that God is standing over us going broke. They messed up here’s consequence. It’s just the way he made the world work, because he knows how the world works best. And so would you get the

[0:21:03] Lois: community first that the very first part of that you said forgiveness doesn’t negate justice justice, Which is so important for a lot of people here, because I know that sometimes people withhold forgiveness. I’ve withheld forgiveness before. Um because you feel like if you forgive, then you’re letting somebody off the hook for what they did that that you’re saying what you did to me is okay mm and right. And so I’m glad I like that phrase, forgiveness does not negate justice. It doesn’t negate consequences. It’s just not it’s just not ours to inflict the consequences,

[0:21:55] Emily: right? But if you do, if there’s legal things involved, you’re not you’re not wrong to pursue justice through whatever justice system that would be a part of whether it’s a legal system or something else, you’re not wrong. You can have fully forgiven and still be seeking justice in an earthly sense, and ultimately God’s vengeance, God’s justice, right? So, yeah, forgiveness is not reconciliation, it is not trust and it is not fellowship. Mhm. Yeah, It’s not one and done. It’s not a process. It is a process. It’s not a one and done. Like, like you asked how had forgiveness been like, taught to me, it was like this one and done. And it was really um I can’t think of a specific example, but I remember it feeling kind of discouraging when anything would crop back up. Um there’s that verse any root of bitterness springing up trouble you that route. You know, we talk about, oh, you got to get the root of the bitterness out, but sometimes you can look at that passage as the root is just there, it’s just going to be there. The seeds are planted. Bad things have happened, it’s when it springs up and it troubles you. So things are gonna pop up over time and as you process through things you’re going to go, oh, I’ve never I never realized that, that wasn’t right. What so and so did or how this impacted me and we’ll have to revisit things over and over. It’s not just one and done and then I just have one more. Yeah, but it’s not it’s not forced. You can’t you can’t will yourself into forgiving and God, I don’t know why he does things the way he does. Sometimes he gives us victory over struggles or beliefs or things that we need to untwist in our lives. Maybe it’s forgiveness over a specific thing. He just gives instantaneous victory. I don’t know why,

[0:24:10] Lois: right?

[0:24:11] Emily: But then there’s things in our life that we just we wrestle with for years or maybe the rest of our life and we don’t need to carry the weight of Why do I still wrestle with this? If you are still wrestling with it? That means that um you are taking the time to value the need for whatever you’re wrestling with. Whether it’s wrestling with truth or for this um episode. Wrestling with forgiveness. Yeah, you’re there, you’re doing the work and you don’t you don’t have to feel guilty over that struggle,

[0:24:46] Lois: right? That some of the some of the very things that you mentioned, I can I can remember the very first time hearing a message um on forgiveness or not holding onto resentment. Um And I was an adult the first time that I heard it in a in a really healthy way. And I remember specifically bobby and I were on staff at a church and our former pastor who still very good friends of ours um dr Lloyd Stilley and Leanne Stilley. And um I actually contacted them this week and I asked him, I’m like, do you have that message archived? Because um he and it actually has done um submitted several sermons. He’s got he’s got a series um that he submitted to Life way that’s archived at lifeway in sermons on a sermon series regarding joseph. Um and I remember sitting in that and hearing some of those statements and then more recently our current pastor making those statements. So some of these you’ve already mentioned, but forgiveness is not easy. Mm hmm. And I think sometimes um depending on what church you grew up in or what denomination or just whatever was taught in your home that um, okay, say I forgive you, forgive your brother, forgive your sister. You know? And yes, in scripture, we are commanded to forgive. So I can understand obeying the commandment to forgive. But there’s a whole process that comes after that, right? So forgiveness is not easy. And you’ve already mentioned this one, but I think it bears mentioning again, forgiveness is not forgetting. And for years, no matter what area you grew up in, um, forgive and forget, forgive and forget. And so I think a lot of people struggled for a lot of years and maybe some struggling today because they’re like, well, I haven’t forgotten it. So maybe I haven’t forgiven it. Um and that’s not the case. We’re not brooding on it. We’re not dwelling on it. We’re not building up the the bitterness and the resentment. Or maybe we are, which we’ll talk about that a little bit more. Um but it’s it’s not forgetting and then forgiveness is and this is one of the things that um I heard in this first message, forgiveness is giving to others what God gave to me through jesus. Yes. The only thing was though, that was kind of wielded um as I was hearing it, it was wielded in a way growing up that um as a guilty manipulative type to get you to forgive somebody, not in a sit back in the awe of what God has. Yes. That he has forgiven me through the work of jesus christ his work on the cross. And because of that, like, how could I not work towards forgiveness for someone? It was just kind of wielded differently then number four. Um and you’ve mentioned this, forgiveness is not reconciliation because you forgive someone. It does not mean that you have to reconcile with that person. Sometimes forgiveness takes place um in your heart between you and the Lord, and you don’t ever have to encounter that person. Well, we’ll talk about that a little bit more over the next couple of episodes, forgiveness is for your personal freedom. You know, it’s to keep rents space. You know, don’t let people have rent space in your head. And we’ve heard that, you know, don’t don’t let people um get free rent space in your head, forgiveness really is for personal freedom. Mm hmm. But again, I go back to the very first one. It’s it’s not easy because um, a statement that my pastor mentioned recently and this is like one of those one liners that you hear and you go, oh man, that’s amazing. And at the same time you go dang it because that means you’re not in charge of it. And he made this statement. Trey taylor made the statement. Giving grace to others means that you surrender your right to punish them. Mhm You just sit in that a minute. It’s like we look at the story of joseph Yeah. And we’re going to talk about this more. But like I’m sure, you know, here he is. This has become this ruler in Egypt 2nd only to the pharaoh and has an opportunity to just punish the crap out of its brothers for what they had done to him. Mm hmm. And um, but yeah, giving grace to others, means you surrender your right to punish them

[0:30:58] Emily: right? And I think he even said giving the same grace that’s been given to us. So when we talk about forgiveness, when we talk about being gracious to others, we get to be a conduit of God’s forgiveness and grace, it doesn’t just stop here. It flows through us. And when we get that picture in our mind that God is using us as his vessels to be vessels of healing and other people’s lives. And maybe like you said, maybe that’s forgiving someone for something that you won’t ever have that conversation with them, you won’t ever see that person again. But we’re still being conduits of God’s grace and loving other people well by letting that flow through us. Yeah, so powerful.

[0:31:50] Lois: That’s so good. Let’s look at a few more verses of joseph’s story. So we remember that joseph um really annoyed his brothers big time. There was a lot of jealousy. There was pride on joseph’s part. Um and you know that he was the favored son, He had the coat of many colors and already knowing that his older brothers had an issue with that, He’s still telling them, oh, I had a dream. He had multiple dreams and it was all about, you know, you guys bowing down to me and I was in charge of this. And um so We’ll go to the next part in Chapter 42. Um as the sons of Israel went to buy grain among those who journeyed for the famine, was in the land of Canaan, joseph was governor over the land and it was he who sold to all the people of the land. And joseph’s brothers came and bowed down before him with their faces to the earth. Mhm. In this time of famine, as we know, joseph is in charge because of the, you know, we already know the history of of him having a good business mind, this is what we need to do for seven years. You know famine is coming and we need to be prepared. And so we’ve seen these verses that his brothers came and bowed before him with their faces to the earth. Okay, so this is a beginning of the culmination of, of one of his first dreams that his brothers would, would bow to him. Um I have to believe that in that moment um joseph recognized them. Um so You know, you go back to chapter 37 when Joseph’s brothers plotted the murder against him and sold him into slavery. They were and I love how enduring word um commentary puts this, they were they did that specifically with the intention to defeat his dreams. You think you’re going to lord over us not gonna happen, we’re gonna kill you. Oh no, let’s not kill you. Let’s sell you into slavery. And that’s where that end bow that we get to, which is a phenomenal verse. But that’s where that you meant this for evil, but God meant it for good. But again, there’s this whole process.

[0:34:43] Emily: Mm pan, okay, I’m so glad you just said that because I feel like this is a sidebar, but I can’t help it. Just the things in my life that I can look back on and go, no, that was subpar or man if we could skip that part and I’m definitely moved to the place where I can say I wouldn’t be here today if it wasn’t for that. But just the way you said that like they did it to defeat his dreams and God is like, no, no, no, no, that’s not how the story is going to go. And I think about the dreams that I have or the vision I have for my business or my podcast or our ministry and I think that’s a direct result from the enemy messing up because the enemy thought that this was going to be your defeat. So I don’t know if that word is for anybody else or if that was just for me,

[0:35:39] Lois: that was so good. That’s good. It is good because I think um and we can break this out a little bit more in the next episode. But I know that when bobby and I um began to walk through four years ago this, you know, almost this month, um it was very hard for us to wrap around, wrap our heads around, Wait God put it, wait, God allowed those people to do that to us. And so that at some point there would be freedom and we, you know, so when you’re in the middle of it, you don’t look at it that way when you’re in the middle of it, you don’t automatically think you meant this for evil, but God meant it for good. Again, it’s a process. So joseph saw his brothers and recognize them but he acted as a stranger to them and spoke roughly to them. Then he said to them where do you come from? And they said from the land of Canaan to buy food. He recognized his brothers but they didn’t recognize him and he acted like a stranger. You know, I don’t think that in this point that joseph um and the the commentary basically said joseph was rough, he did not reveal his identity to his brothers and that this was guided by the holy spirit mm Remember what they said of Joseph in Genesis 41, can we find such a one as this a man whom is the spirit of God? So this the commentator says this wasn’t revenge or twisting the knife. Um he was being patient.

[0:37:34] Emily: Yeah I wonder too if in that moment he was still deciding how to respond.

[0:37:42] Lois: Yeah and in his wisdom didn’t respond but I love them that um joseph recognized his brothers but they didn’t recognize him. And the commentator says in this joseph is another picture of jesus, jesus sees who we are long before we see who he is, he recognizes us and he still loves us and it goes back to that we are to forgive others and extend grace to them like christ has forgiven us but it takes a while sometimes to recognize that. Mhm Yeah that joseph goes on to interrogate his brothers. He remembered the dreams which he had dreamed about them and he said to them your spies you have come to see the nakedness of the land and they said to him, no my lord but your servants have come to buy food. We are all one man’s sons. We are honest men. Oh can you imagine joseph hearing were honest men? And he oh because at that point I would have been like what did you do? You just hear what you said, you’re honest men? Let’s talk about that you know. And yet he says your servants are, they said your servants are not spies. But he said to them. No, but you have come to see the nakedness of the land. And they said your servants are 12 brothers. The sons of one man in the land of Canaan. And in fact the youngest is with your father Today. And one is no more. Ouch. But joseph said to them, it is as I spoke to you, you are spies in this manner. You shall be tested by the life of pharaoh. You shall not leave this place unless your youngest brother comes here send one of you and let him bring your brother and you will be kept in prison. That your words may be tested. To see whether there is any truth in you or else by the life of pharaoh shortly. You are spies and see if somebody was spying the land. Then they were put to death. Okay, So he put them all together in prison for three days. Uh Again, this is a process that I see as um the Holy Spirit was holding joseph back from revealing himself because he’s remembering the dreams that he had 20 years ago and he knew that God put those dreams in him. So those things had to come to fruition. He may have wanted to reveal himself, but he held back because God recalled the dreams to his mind. Mm hmm. And and sometimes that doesn’t make sense. We don’t understand God’s ways. His ways are higher than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. But I also believe that a part of this is seeking if they if his brothers are truly repentant. You know, there are people that have been hurt. There are people to what we just need to forgive. But yes, we’re commanded to forgive. But sometimes the forgiveness, it does require seeing the right justice take place for somebody to completely heal from something. You can take the step of forgiveness as we’re commanded. But we do need to see justice in in God’s timing weed. Don’t, as we said earlier, we don’t perpetuate the punishment. But God is a god of mercy. But he’s also a God of justice

[0:41:59] Emily: right? And I just feel like just taking a step back for a second just to say this, God is not the author of anything bad or evil in our lives, he can just take what was bad and the enemy meant for evil and he turns it for good, it’s not that he goes, ooh, I know how to work through so and so’s life, I’m going to let them be abused or I’m going to let them be neglected. No, like that is that is not God and that attitude is sometimes unintentionally perpetuated when we say, oh God just works this out for good, I just want you to know or um everything happens for a reason, you know, that little cliche and it can be comforting

[0:42:53] Lois: working everything for is good,

[0:42:55] Emily: right? And that’s that bow, that’s that bow, and we can see sometimes in retrospect and go this is how God worked this out for good, but sometimes things are just crappy things, we just like that suck. And I don’t, I don’t know if there’s somebody listening and I just want you to be reminded that we’re not saying that God let that happen. We’re just saying that God can take that horrible thing and write a better story with it.

[0:43:23] Lois: Yeah, we we do have to remember that even in God’s sovereignty and that’s who, that is a thing that I will still be studying and processing until we get to heaven. Um but when sin came into the world, you know, and the verse says when sin came into the world and death by sin um and all have sinned, there are so many things that happen evil in our world, we’re not just talking about forgiving something like because somebody took your lunch out of the work refrigerator, We’re talking about people who have dealt with heavy serious should have never happened injustices, all of those things And I think that’s 1 1 one thing that people struggle with and as far as forgiveness goes. Um and in the last few years there’s just been in a in a healthy way. There’s been a lot of um transparency about abuse in the church and things happening and those things do need to be recognized and those things do need to be held accountable. And I think it’s when those things are not recognized when people are made to feel like forgive and forget or this or that, then the bow gets wrapped up and they feel like I’m not working this right? But I’m and they feel like things are covered up and things are covered up. Well, you should just forgive and move on. We’ve heard stories before, We’ve had people on our on our podcast that, you know, we’re made to feel like, well you just need to forgive and and move on. Like it didn’t like it didn’t happen because if you bring this, then you really haven’t forgiven. If you bring this forward in front of the church and then you really haven’t forgiven. That is not how God works. It’s just not Mhm Right, so we go on um and joseph gives his brothers the terms of the release. Then joseph said to them the third day, do this and live for I fear God, if you are honest men, if you are honest men, let one of your brothers be confined to your prison house. But you go and carry grain for the famine of your houses and bring your youngest brother to me. So your words will be verified and you shall not die and they did so

[0:46:28] Emily: yeah. And this next part where it reveals again what is on the brother’s mind, They were like we are reaping for what we sowed with Joseph because Rubin says in verse 22, he says didn’t I tell you not to harm the boy, but you wouldn’t listen now we must account for his blood. I mean they know that this is connected. This it this might like reading through the story, it might feel a little random what joseph decided to do, but it got his brother’s number, like they know what they’re being tested for.

[0:47:05] Lois: Right? Absolutely. And um you know that the guilt that they have felt over the years and probably and there are there are um not spin offs, but kind of spin offs to a couple of these brothers lives that go awry for choices that they made um and joseph’s hearing them what you just read, joseph hears them but he pretends not to be able to speak their language and he chooses to speak through an interpreter. Mhm Yeah. And this part, they did not know that joseph understood them for he spoke to them through an interpreter and he turned himself away from them and wept. Joseph is broken. He hears his brothers say this is happening because of what we did to our brother. We are truly guilty. And then the verse 21 for we saw the anguish of his soul when he pleaded with us and we would not here. That’s why this distress has come upon us mm And joseph standing there, he can understand every word that his brothers are saying and he turns away so they don’t see him weeping.

[0:48:49] Emily: Yeah, they go from we are honest men to hope somebody, somebody knows what skeletons in our

[0:48:55] Lois: closet. Um He takes Simeon from them and binds them, bind him before their eyes. So this commentator says in a vivid and memorable scene, joseph bound Simeon and kept him as a prisoner to guarantee the return of his brothers with Benjamin Simeon was not mentioned as having a prominent role in the selling of joseph as both Reuben and Judah were. So we don’t know exactly why Simeon was chosen and the commentator says maybe he volunteered, which I think could be very possible. He realizes and he volunteers, joseph gives a command to fill their sacks with grain to restore every man’s money to a sack. So the brothers leave with grain but also their money. And you would think, oh wow, this is awesome. But when they realize it, they’re like, oh crap now we’re gonna be accused. So lack of repentance. When someone needs, when someone yeah, when someone needs forgiveness, honestly, your lack of repentance not only causes that person harm because they struggle with the desire to forgive you, but your lack of repentance causes your own harm physically, mentally, emotionally spiritually. And it thwarts your thought process about everything in your life.

[0:50:52] Emily: Yeah, it does, wow.

[0:50:56] Lois: Yeah, they were freaking out. The verse even says that when the one brother realized when he opened a sect that their money had been restored, their hearts failed them and they were afraid and they’re saying, what is this that God has done to us? Their hearts failed them. Um, and I love what this commentator says, he says, this was a test not from joseph but from God, what would they do with the money? What would be revealed about their heart? And he gives four things that are just phenomenal. He said the deceptive heart would hide it. The lying heart would make up a story about it, about the money. The proud heart would think that it deserved it. And the superficial heart would think nothing of it, wow. So when we read those statements and we think about forgiveness and our yes, our personal need to forgive. Um we’re human. And so when people deal with people hurting them, whether it’s physically emotionally, mentally spiritually. Mm hmm. And we see the truth. We see that either they have a deceptive heart or lying heart or proud heart or a superficial heart. I think that’s when it makes it even more difficult to forgive someone when you see their heart because what you really want is true repentance from them. For you too be able to forgive.

[0:52:50] Emily: Right? Oh, one of the comments that we got when we asked in the facebook group, one girl said, I feel like it’s harder to forgive the people closest to me. She didn’t work it quite that way. But she said it, she’s like, I feel like they should be able to know me and not be hurting me. And that goes with just what you just said. Like when we can see someone else’s heart, it hurts more. Yeah.

[0:53:25] Lois: Their hearts failed them and they were afraid and they ended up talking to each other about it. But it’s still, they don’t know the entire story.

[0:53:39] Emily: Right? So when we’re talking about forgiveness and repentance and the complexities of this, um, I think what comes to mind is the verses in the new testament where john the baptist mentions that they, you know, to look for fruit. Um that would be um evidence of repentance. Can’t think of how it’s boarded right now, but um it’s Matthew 38 and luke 38 as well as Acts 26. So you can go look those up if you want to. But when we think about the fruit that joseph was looking for, it’s not an apology, it’s not just one little evidence of it. When we think about fruit and maybe a tree, there’s a lot of fruit for repentance, there’s a lot of change, there’s a lot of visible um fruit that we can see that takes time to cultivate, but it’s not just a one time thing, it should continue to produce the fruit of repentance so that we can see someone’s heart and life has shifted. So if you’re looking for that fruit and you’re going okay, I’ve forgiven, but I don’t know should we reconcile or is their repentance here to even begin the process of reconciliation? You don’t have to feel bad for looking for that fruit. It’s healthy and wise, a wise man seize the evil. Um The simple pass on and are punished. Uh

[0:55:27] Lois: anyway, and I’m gonna give a caveat here and we probably will over the next few episodes that just because someone repents and you have walked through the processes of forgiveness still does not mean that there has to be reconciliation, right? Because some situations are dangerous. Some situations um don’t deserve, trust the forgiveness is for you and for you to be able to walk forward. I read um something somebody posted this week. I heard it. I’m going to listen to the whole episode, but it was not like forgive and just just get over it. Um that’s that’s easy for other people because other people, it’s hard for them to continue to walk through somebody’s pain with them. And even though we don’t sit and wallow in the pain or whatever has happened to us, you know, there’s a there’s a time for that lamenting that hurt and processing that, but there is a time to to stand up and and and and move forward, but somebody else does not get to dictate to that to you. That is that is from the Holy Spirit. Um and and I do believe that God works through his scripture, he works through um other Godly people to help you walk through that. Um you know, one of the statements that was made in the facebook page goes right along with where we are right now of kind of like this repentance and forgiveness, It was such a phenomenal statement. Do you have that? I do you can read that to us, huh?

[0:57:29] Emily: Yeah, I want to quote it right. It was from Clay Maynard from the young baptist podcast and when we asked for comments or um things people have learned or questions around forgiveness. This is what he said. This is just one of the comments, he said, he said I have lots of thoughts on this subject, but the first one that he mentions, he says don’t take lessons on how to forgive and move on from people who don’t know how to apologize and change. That’s good. If they don’t know how to repent, you probably don’t need to take advice from them on how to forgive. And I’m so glad you brought that up because very we let a lot of things speak into our lives really We listen to podcasts, we listen to other people’s pastor and preacher and it’s amazing. And then we get on social media and we follow maybe what 200 300 people and we we see their posts and we get all this input. But really when it comes to stuff like this there’s very few people in your life that get to speak in and say hey I I think you’re in victim motor. I think you’re wallowing when maybe from the outside in we can’t really tell if that person is wallowing or maybe like you said a season of lament so we can’t just rush people on.

[0:59:04] Lois: Yeah that’s good.

[0:59:07] Emily: So I feel like this episode is kind of work at like still we have so much to cover in the story of joseph but we’ve given so much in this episode there’s probably enough for you guys to go listen back to it again because we kind of got fast through some of this stuff but this feels like a good place to land.

[0:59:29] Lois: Yeah we’re not done but I think this is a good place to land for um for this for this first episode.

[0:59:44] Emily: Yeah. Thanks for hanging with us guys and thank you for your input. We will be covering, We’re not sure yet. We’re going to pray about it. This might be two episode, that might be three, but we will address the questions that were posed to us. Um so yeah, you know we’re not going to miss those, we’re gonna skip them.

[1:00:03] Lois: Oh no, we just have so um so much to cover and really want to take our time with this um Biblical concept of forgiveness. So hang with us. So

[1:00:21] Emily: Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. Let us know if you have some questions before we record episode three and we’ll be back. Thanks for hanging with us.

[1:00:32] Lois: Thanks guys.

[1:00:34] Emily: Bye.